Not ready for prime time!

I began planning my first long distance outing when I got my Bolt two months ago by signing up for EVGo and ChargePointe accounts and locating all the charging stations between my home in Irvine, CA and Las Vegas, NV. We had previously roamed around Los Angeles and Orange counties on trips up to 120 miles. But last week we drove up to Idyllwild, CA, 105 mile away and 6000 feet up where we slow charged on 120 volts until we left town with a range of 195 miles showing. We arrived home showing 196 miles, thanks to regeneration and some questionable computations.
There aren't many charging locations between Irvine and Las Vegas and we'd never used one before so we hedged our bets by immediately stopping in Victorville after less than 50 miles to top off. I had read that there was an EVGo there with a DC Fast Charge and fixed price of $9.95. We found the station and eventually saw that it would take 14 minutes. We went into the mall for lunch and monitored progress via the MyChevrolet app. Charging stopped at 87%, with not enough miles to get us to Vegas. I called EVgo and was told the$9.95 flat rate was for only 30 minutes!
That works out to $50 for a full charge (it took us from 67% to 87%).
We decided to press on to Primm, NV, with its free level 2 stations. We started monitoring our shrinking margin, slowing way down and even killing the AC. Regeneration saved us as we approached Primm, increasing our margin from a low of 16 to 33.
We found the idle stations, but had a horrible time reading the display in the bright sunlight. I got on the phone with tech support and they eventually decided the station was down, even though the online map continued to list them as available.
So here we are, 45 miles from our destination plugged into a 120V outlet on a 100 degree day knowing it will be hours before we can proceed.

Clearly, EVgo and ChargePointe need some work.

This is an example of why a Volt is such a good choice for long distance travel. When I went to Vegas, I didn't give anything a thought.

And still, I've gone 3500 miles in the two months I've owned it and have used essentially no gas except on this one trip.

What's not ready for Prime Time? The car or the practically nonexistent charging infrastructure? :lol:

EVgo is terrible and I hate their 30 minute policy, and have personally done a LOT of bitching about this, but it makes them a lot of money on poor saps that have to make 3 charging sessions. I grudgingly took their most expensive plan to avoid this charge, and it's paid for itself quite quickly on my last road trip. But, fuck those guys none the less. Traipsing out in to the sweltering WalMart parking lot every 28 minutes gets old quick.

The real problem here is lack of fast chargers along the highways. Do note that there is a nice fast charger at the McDonalds in Banning, which is right at the bottom of the hill coming out of Idylwild. I've used it many times, and it's NOT EVGO!!! Pay for what you use! Getting to Vegas is a problem though. I hear rumors of it being fixed soon.

I can personally say however, that it's quite possible to road trip with the Bolt, just not everywhere. We went WAY up past Sacramento from LA, and it's not that inconvenient, especially with kids and pets that NEED the hour breaks anyways. You won't break any speed records though. It's a slightly different style of travel.

We are staring down a HUGE problem in the near future however, and that's the simple fact that the fast chargers along the freeway are going to become completely overrun. We are in no way going to meet the demand of thousands of drivers going to Vegas with a two stations between there and LA. Or anywhere for that matter. The only reason I can charge my car in Delano is because NOBODY in Delano drives an EV. I'm glad it's there, but road tripping in an EV is still a novelty. But as you found out, we're already bumping up against the wall as far as infrastructure is concerned.

Can we all sit down and come up with a number of how many fast chargers it would take to handle the current travel volume to Vegas if... say... 10% of the cars were 200 mile class EVs?

Pigwich said:

What's not ready for Prime Time? The car or the practically nonexistent charging infrastructure?

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Both. They are one and the same. Can't have eggs without chickens. Can't have chickens without eggs.

Pigwich said:

We are staring down a HUGE problem in the near future however, and that's the simple fact that the fast chargers along the freeway are going to become completely overrun. We are in no way going to meet the demand of thousands of drivers going to Vegas with a two stations between there and LA. Or anywhere for that matter.

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The answer is: Big Oil.

In less than three years, we could see L2/L3 charging at every existing gas station in America. Give Big Oil a sizable incentive package to install them, and it will happen. Problem solved.

I can think of VW and two billion reasons why the future looks bright for EV infrastructure.

oilerlord said:

The answer is: Big Oil.

In less than three years, we could see L2/L3 charging at every existing gas station in America. Give Big Oil a sizable incentive package to install them, and it will happen. Problem solved.

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I partially agree (working on a streak now, eh Athabasca buddy? ). Until we get technology to more rapidly charge EVs, any charging location would have to have something for drivers to do while charging. Most gas stations won't cut it. The ones with lots or restaurants, fast food, shops nearby (or part of a highway "oasis" setup) would be the ideal locations.

dandrewk said:

Until we get technology to more rapidly charge EVs, any charging location would have to have something for drivers to do while charging. Most gas stations won't cut it. The ones with lots or restaurants, fast food, shops nearby (or part of a highway "oasis" setup) would be the ideal locations.

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Yeah.. In my neighborhood, the only people who hang out at gas stations are meth heads, hookers and schizophrenics. Not a great place to kill an hour, or leave your car.

The Whole Foods chargers are great (there's a good one in Sacramento at the natural foods cooperative too) and they have those cafeterias that are amazing. Also, down in Palm Desert, they have chargers in an awesome park, and I think there's one in a park near Torrance I think, And the one in Pasadena near the park. Fantastic places to charge. Wal Mart parking lot? A distant second. And dead last is at the airport parking lot or the train station (for fast chargers at least)

It's quite easy to kill an hour if you're doing something pleasant, especially if you've been in the car for the past three. I think all that personal data that Google collects on people could come in handy - Where are retail and restaurant locations where people typically spend 80 minutes? That's where the DCFC units go.


And as for Vegas? Every dumpy-ass joint with slot machines should have fast chargers, though I'm not sure the Venn diagram of current EV drivers and compulsive gamblers has a lot of crossover.

A few days before I saw your post I'd used Plugshare to see what it would take to drive my wife's 2-month-old Bolt from LA to Las Vegas. At first glance the complete absence of any CCS chargers in the Mojave Desert suggested you can't get there conveniently in a Bolt, which your experience seemed to confirm.

My wife and I will soon drive from Palo Alto to Yachats, OR, Seattle, WA, Lake Quinault, WA, and Vancouver, BC, in her Bolt. (Not her idea, she thinks I'm crazy.) Having done several long trips around CA in my 15-month-old Mirai FCV, including going through Donner Pass at 7000', considerably higher than anything on I-15, and going nonstop down the Cabrillo Highway (Route 1) from San Jose to Santa Barbara, somewhat longer than LA to LV, I'm starting to get the hang of planning for long trips in EV's. So I decided to take a closer look at your LA-to-LV trip along I-15.

When leaving Victorville for Las Vegas, I can think of two reasons to stop charging the Bolt at 85% (51 kWh?). First, that's the SOC at which charging drops to about 16 kW (and to 10 kW at 95%), so that extra session cost you more than twice your previous session, per mile.

Second, I-15 from Victorville to Las Vegas is quite hilly and therefore needs to be planned for accordingly. The energy in joules needed to raise m kilograms h meters is mgh where g = 9.8 m/s2 is the acceleration due to gravity. Taking m to be a gross vehicle weight of 1808 kg (two passengers and luggage), dividing by 3600 to convert joules to watt-hours, and multiplying by 0.3048 to allow h to be in feet instead of meters, the energy needed to raise the Bolt h thousand feet comes to exactly 3h/2 kWh plus inefficiencies of say 10%. Regen with a 60 kWh battery is much closer to 100% efficient than with a 1.6 kWh battery like that on the Camry Hybrid or my Mirai FCV, due to its far lower internal resistance, making 3h/2 at worst 10% high for the kWh of regen when descending h thousand feet.

I-15 descends 2235' (worth say +3 kWh of regen) to Baker (100 miles out of Victorville) then in the next 33 miles climbs 3800' (say -6 kWh) to the pass at Clark Mountain, finally descending 2375' (say +3 kWh) the last 45 miles to the closest Terrible Herbst with a 100A (40 kW) eVgo charger in Las Vegas.

So leaving Victorville with 51 kWh (85%) in the battery, and driving at whatever speed gets you 4 miles per kWh on a level road at the prevailing temperature, at Baker the battery should be down to 51 - 100/4 + 3 = 29 kWh, then at Clark Mountain 29 - 33/4 - 6 = 15 kWh, then at the Terrible Herbst at 11330 Southern Highland in Las Vegas 15 - 45/4 + 3 = 7 kWh, corresponding to a remaining range of nearly 30 miles.

So I'm a bit puzzled about your experience, which looks like it should have been a non-stop trip from Victorville to LV had you read the tea-leaves right on the dashboard.

My best guess is that on the steep 33-mile climb out of Baker the range was falling so fast, even while driving slowly, that you felt that caution was the better part of valor even after regen kicked in after the peak.

(Props to Zoomit for his comprehensive charging tables for how the Bolt tapers charging power, and to Google Earth for their elevation profile feature---just right click on the route you get with "Get Directions".)

[Edit: forgot to take AC into account for day driving and lights for night. So allowing another 10%, maybe you'd have about 10 miles of range left.]

Apparrently, I have to explicitly explain that my post is about the state of the network of available chargers (and not the Bolt), although perhaps it's by design: folks with big range Teslas can make the trip with ease and feast on numerous free high speed idle chargers in Las Vegas. Folks with Leafs, Sparks, and other 80 mile range vehicles need not apply. People with 230 mile range vehicles will be enticed by apps and charger networks that say things are up and working when in fact they are not.

Follow-up: We made it! Barely.

When we arrived in Primm with a tiny margin of 13 indicated miles charge left to reach LV after our EVgo problems in Victorville persuaded us to not charge any further, we discovered that the free Chargepoint Level 2 charger iwas not working. The operator did assume some responsibility when we asked to use a 120 V outlet, but every location we tried was dead and their "engineer" did not know how to switch them on. So we hobbled across the freeway to the unoccupied Texaco station and connected to a 120 outlet for three plus hours to get the indicated range up to forty. We then set our sights on a place listed as Level 2 just on the outskirts of LV. Once again, the information was wrong, but this time in a good way: the charger at Terrible Herbst turned out to be a working, available, EVGo DC Fast Charge and we quickly put 75 miles on the Bolt using 101 amps at 338 volts while my wife finished her book and I had an ice cream sandwich and thanked the employees on duty.
We rolled into the Excalibur 5 hours later than planned stressed but alive. The free Level 2 chargers advertised but never confirmed after several phone calls proved to be real AND free AND working and we added 50 kWH overnight.

Specifically about the LA to LV drive...

A *lot* of DCFC freeway sites are supposed to be installed around CA, and specifically along I-15 and CA-58. At Baker, there's supposed to be 4 DCFCs, and at the ?four? others along I-15, 2 DCFCs per site. A map of 'approved' and 'funded' DCFC spots going in 'at some point' in CA at this link (it is unclear when, but it shouldn't be tooooooo long) : https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1VEJLK0-wcAhWV8Q0MirTLULd5mg&ll=34.936634278619145%2C-117.80139298593747&z=9


Note the map does NOT include any DCFCs that VW may be installing over the next 5 years.

TedMichon said:

Apparrently, I have to explicitly explain that my post is about the state of the network of available chargers (and not the Bolt)...

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Further to SparkE's excellent point about planned expansion along I-15, which might be summarized as "you can't step in the same stream twice", I should have explained that my post was to challenge your evidence for your thesis "not ready for prime time!" by pointing out that, even today, it should have been possible to plan a nonstop trip from Victorville to the 100A eVgo station at Terrible Herbst 11330 Southern Highlands Pkwy in Las Vegas, with an eVgo backup 3 miles away at 4850 W Silverado Ranch Blvd, saving you many hours of anxiety, and money to boot. Plugshare and Google Earth are great for that.

But I would go further and say that when it comes to EVs there is no such thing as "not ready for prime time." There is only today's possible journeys in today's models of EVs. No FCEV can make it from California to Oregon today without needing to be towed back (which is why we're going to Vancouver, BC in my wife's Bolt and not my longer-range Mirai). But my Mirai can drive nonstop from San Jose to Santa Barbara which her Bolt can't. Any Tesla can drive across the US thanks to Tesla's supercharger network, but there are millions of square miles in North America that a Volt can reach but no Tesla can thanks to the Volt's capacious gas tank, and to a lesser extent the BMW i3 REx with its much smaller tank. And I bet no one on your block has a car of any kind that can go everywhere a 2017 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Hard Rock can go.

What the world needs now, both for BEVs and FCEVs, is experience with journeys in models of EVs, such as yours from Victorville via I-15 to Las Vegas in a Bolt, mine from San Jose via Cabrillo Highway to Santa Barbara in a Mirai, our planned trip to Vancouver, BC with various side trips in my wife's Bolt, etc., along with tricks of the trade and traps for the unwary.

With of course the caveat that, as the infrastructure grows and as new models come online, this information has a shelf life about that of Clinton's private email server, Trump's private conversations with Putin, and the Private Reserve cannabinoids that cured California in the 1960s of what still ails Washington DC today. (N. Reagan: "Just say no." W. Clinton: "I didn't inhale." B. Obama: "That was the point." D. Trump: "Division B, section 537 provides that the Department of Justice may not use any funds to prevent implementation of medical marijuana laws by various States and territories. I will treat this provision consistently with my constitutional responsibility to take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Whatever those three tweets worth mean.)

TedMichon said:

Apparrently, I have to explicitly explain that my post is about the state of the network of available chargers (and not the Bolt), although perhaps it's by design: folks with big range Teslas can make the trip with ease and feast on numerous free high speed idle chargers in Las Vegas. Folks with Leafs, Sparks, and other 80 mile range vehicles need not apply. People with 230 mile range vehicles will be enticed by apps and charger networks that say things are up and working when in fact they are not.

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The availability of public charging especially in terms of making a road trip - is lacking. We get it. With that said, your post is also about the Bolt or any upcoming 200 mile EV (yes, even the Model 3). I consider 200 miles a "tweener" range. Absolutely long enough for city commutes but just long enough to tease you into thinking you can make a longer road trip. Given the experience you had, it doesn't always work out. I'm sure you would have rather spent those three hours by the pool, and not at a Texaco station..

I think the title "Not ready for prime time" is appropriate. To Michael's point, it's probably one of the biggest reasons why the Volt outsells the Bolt. The Volt just makes more sense - especially for road trips. Going to Vegas is about having fun. Having to figure out where to find a plug harshes the buzz.

vrpratt, thank you very much for demonstrating the process that we 'old time' EV drivers go through when planning longer trips. With the Bolt's relatively-high power onboard charger and a boxload of adapters, RV campgrounds with their NEMA 14-50 offer the most viable charging alternatives, although welding shops, laundromats, etc. are just some alternative sources. PlugShare shows only a small number of those alternatives. 120vac on the road is primarily good for overnight stays and a last-resort daytime charge. With proper planning, there is no such things as 'Range Anxiety'.

Pigwich said:

EVgo is terrible and I hate their 30 minute policy, and have personally done a LOT of bitching about this, but it makes them a lot of money on poor saps that have to make 3 charging sessions. I grudgingly took their most expensive plan to avoid this charge, and it's paid for itself quite quickly on my last road trip.

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As I've pointed out mathematically elsewhere on this Forum, if you use EVGo just 60 minutes every month, their $14.95 monthly On-the-Go plan, which eliminates the "per use" fee, is cheaper than the other plans!

This means that the 30 minute timer, while still a PITA, does not add a per use cost to the charging session!

oilerlord said:

I think the title "Not ready for prime time" is appropriate.

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That's like saying a Honda Fit isn't ready for prime time with regards to pulling an RV trailer. Pick the wrong tool for a job, and you will be disappointed by the results.

EVs are meant for frequent relatively close trips, and they are exceedingly good at that.

No amount of charging infrastructure will make up for the deficiency that EVs have in covering long distances in short periods of time. Drive your other non-EV car for those trips, trade vehicles with a neighbor or family member, rent another car, fly, take the train... there are many other excellent tools for the job. So many in fact, that we really shouldn't hear these complaint stories unless people are a glutton for punishment and want to brag.

MichaelLAX said:

As I've pointed out mathematically elsewhere on this Forum, if you use EVGo just 60 minutes every month, their $14.95 monthly On-the-Go plan, which eliminates the "per use" fee, is cheaper than the other plans!

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Mathematically it's insane what they charge, regardless of the plan. It costs me 1/5 the price per mile to charge at home compared to my 30 MPG Acura TSX. Then again, I don't feel sorry for those who use the wrong tool for the job.

redpoint5 said:

MichaelLAX said:

As I've pointed out mathematically elsewhere on this Forum, if you use EVGo just 60 minutes every month, their $14.95 monthly On-the-Go plan, which eliminates the "per use" fee, is cheaper than the other plans!

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Mathematically it's insane what they charge, regardless of the plan. It costs me 1/5 the price per mile to charge at home compared to my 30 MPG Acura TSX. Then again, I don't feel sorry for those who use the wrong tool for the job.

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If you are going to make the nonsensical comparison of the cost of a commercial charger to the cost at home, I will make the equally nonsensical suggestion you carry a really, really long extension cord!

You are paying for the equipment, the installation, and the maintenance, not for the electricity.
If you spread the cost of a $1000 L2 installation over the KWHs you use, your actual home charging costs will be considerably higher, no matter what the electrical rate..

MichaelLAX said:

If you are going to make the nonsensical comparison of the cost of a commercial charger to the cost at home, I will make the equally nonsensical suggestion you carry a really, really long extension cord!

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Residential rates are higher than any other rates. The chargers should be on commercial rates, and the cost of installing the infrastructure should be amortized over a time period that allows electricity to at least approach the cost of gasoline. It costs way more to install a petrol station and truck fuel around than to attach some wires to the grid, step down the voltage, and rectify it.

EldRick said:

You are paying for the equipment, the installation, and the maintenance, not for the electricity.
If you spread the cost of a $1000 L2 installation over the KWHs you use, your actual home charging costs will be considerably higher, no matter what the electrical rate..

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I'm in about $350 total for my L2 EVSE and 50A NEMA 14/50-r. The difference is that my installation gets much less use than a public charger, which should be able to quickly recover the cost over thousands of charges.

EldRick said:

You are paying for the equipment, the installation, and the maintenance, not for the electricity.
If you spread the cost of a $1000 L2 installation over the KWHs you use, your actual home charging costs will be considerably higher, no matter what the electrical rate..

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100,000 miles @ 4miles per kWh gives $0.04 more than wall rate. Actual cost is less, as 240 V charging is more efficient.