Improved battery technology - will the Bolt EV use it?

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mitchev

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I came across an interesting article about available 'future' tech for batteries which I wanted to share with the Chevrolet Bolt Forum.

Here is the full article:http://seekingalpha.com/article/3954736-future-batteries-tesla-model-3-chevy-bolt

There are technologies available today that can help cut up to half of the cost of manufacturing batteries. The theory presented in the article is that if Tesla with the Model 3, and/or GM with the Bolt EV can achieve enough volume, they will be able to implement these technologies and experience huge cost savings. These savings could bring an EV total cost lower than a traditional internal combustion vehicle.

Here are 3 of the technologies available:
24M: 24M is a company that came out of MIT, and has as its CTO one of the founders of lithium ion batteries at Sony (NYSE:SNE). Their innovation is simple: They are using thicker electrode layers, up to 450 microns instead of the normal 60-100 microns. The interesting thing is the reduction in cost: Over 80% cost savings for the current collectors and separator, and over 60% for electrolyte and processing costs, for a total cost savings of about 65%. Think having your $35,000 Bolt go 700 miles on a charge instead of 300.

DexMet: Everyone knows there is too much metal in a battery, and that it is heavy. These guys are expanding the foils to make what is essentially a screen of wire, which they will then coat to form the anode and cathode. With less metal, there will be increased safety (smaller chance of a hard short) and lighter weight. The cost savings comes from being able to do a double-sided coat in one pass, which will cut the coating process time in half. It will also reduce the soaking time with electrolyte.

Buhler: Buhler makes equipment to mix food in an extrusion process. They have applied this to lithium ion batteries to mix the materials, and have proven a process to mix in-line, replacing a 6-7 hour batch mixing process. The time is faster, the uniformity better, with about 60% less energy and 30% of the CAP-EX requirements, plus much lower work-in-process materials.

Oak Ridge National Lab: Oak Ridge, along with others, have developed water-based binders that can eliminate the cost of using expensive organic solvents for coating, and the cost and CAP-EX of the recovery process also. The potential is to take a significant chunk out of the coating costs.
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saupload_Chevrolet_Bolt_Concept__rear__NAIAS_2015_thumb1.jpg


And it's all summed up in their investment advice:
What does it mean for you, the investor?

There is a simple bet you can make, and use your judgment and talk with your friends. Costs aside, EVs provide a better drive, but today they are limited in range. The Bolt and Model 3 will make huge strides against that. If the range and costs are fixed, then as an EV owner, I can say there will be very few EV drivers who will ever buy an ICE car again. There is simply no reason, unless you love the smell of gasoline, oil changes, the way the car shakes and gurgles when you turn it on and trips to the repair shop.
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The "power" "stored" in a battery depends upon how many pounds of electrode and electrolyte. If the battery is light weight, then it is low capacity.
 
buickanddeere said:
The "power" "stored" in a battery depends upon how many pounds of electrode and electrolyte. If the battery is light weight, then it is low capacity.
Click to expand...

So are you saying that a battery can only get smaller, but not lighter as technology improves?
 
The 2015 Chevy Spark EV loses 86 pounds in the battery pack, and will keep the same 82 mile range as the 2014 Spark EV.
It's slightly confusing saying that the battery capacity goes down from 21 kWh to 19 kWh, but with the weight savings it preservers the range???

In theory then, a 1 kWh battery pack could go the same distance because it would weight so much less? :D
 
buickanddeere said:
The "power" "stored" in a battery depends upon how many pounds of electrode and electrolyte. If the battery is light weight, then it is low capacity.
Click to expand...
This ignores all the other contributors to weight in a battery pack (not to mention the cell). A cell can be optimized by using the right form factor - larger cells use less packaging for the same amount of electrode/electrolyte for example. A smaller cell also requires less packaging. A pack can be improved in many of the same ways. So yes, I believe them when they say that there is still significant room for improvement in battery pack energy density.
 
I'm an ME, AE, and C. Sci, and this battery tech/science is just too much for me. Not my forte.
However, we can all understand that too much battery mass & volume is detrimental. The Bolt has almost 1,000 lbs of batteries in a vehicle the size of a Chevy Sonic! Enough is enough. My Ford Focus Electric has 600 lb batteries, and I thought that was too much. I hope they get the weight down (maybe by eliminating some metal as in the original post). We may have to start calling the Bolt the "Lead Sled" in need of Weight Watchers.

The good news is, LG Chem's batteries are improving in the pounds per kWH category:
---- Ford Focus Electric: 26 lb/kWH
---- Chevy Bolt: 17 lb/kWH Much Better! Progress.
And the latest Leaf batteries are showing improvements:
---- 30 kWH Leaf is only 46 lbs heavier, and same volume, as the older 24kWH model.

That means the Ford Focus Electric could get the latest LG Chem batteries and do 100-miles on only 500 lbs instead of the current 76-miles on 600 lbs, not a bad improvement. Ford has said the Focus Electric will get 100 miles range in a few months. It'll be nice if it also loses 100 lbs. Of course, I'm stuck with yesterday's tech even though my Focus E is only 5 months old.

The other thing that we can watch is the cost per kWH, and it was revealed the Bolt gets a great deal from LG Chem at $145/kWH, which may be a new record low.

I haven't noticed a lot of differences in tech between Panasonic, Samsung, LG Chem, whoever else is contending. Advancements seem to parallel each other in energy density, and cost figures are unknown in most cases.
 
The FFE weighs more than the Bolt and has a higher COG due to battery placement.
The Volt is 100 lbs lighter than the FFE, even with the weight of an ICE.

You can argue all you want that they should make an EV with LESS range, but there are already many choices in the 100 mile and less range. You chose one of them. I'm surprised that you chose the Ford given your concern with weight; only the Mercedes is heavier and the i3 is 1000lbs lighter.
 
DucRider said:
The FFE weighs more than the Bolt and has a higher COG due to battery placement.
The Volt is 100 lbs lighter than the FFE, even with the weight of an ICE.
You can argue all you want that they should make an EV with LESS range, but there are already many choices in the 100 mile and less range. You chose one of them. I'm surprised that you chose the Ford given your concern with weight; only the Mercedes is heavier and the i3 is 1000lbs lighter.
Click to expand...

No, actually the FFE is only 60 lbs heavier than a Bolt, (not 100) which isn't much. Also, the FFE has a wider, roomier cabin than a Bolt. The Bolt is a smaller vehicle. Also, given the tall box Bolt with passengers sitting higher, and an extra high lump of batteries near the rear, the Bolt's cg is likely not too different than the FFE's cg.

As I said above, the FFE uses LG Chem's older battery tech at a higher lb/kWH value, which does create a weight penalty. The fact that the FFE still handles decently is a credit to its Control Blade rear suspension, superior to the Bolt's mini-van-Tech twist beam axle on a narrower track width.
You can pay $30k+ for a vehicle with a twist beam rear suspension, and Chevy will hope you don't notice it in the Bolt!

You always seem to forget that $$$ price $$$ is a factor in the market. Why recommend the BMW i3 to me when that choice would have cost me $12,000 more than the total net $15k I paid for a new Ford Focus Electric (FFE)? If money meant nothing, we'd all have Elon Musk rides and Ferraris.

Remember, the market has a place for more expensive 200-mile electrics AND the 100-mile-or-so cheaper ones that are truly affordable for a 2nd car, which most electrics are or should be for most homes. Ford has said it wants to sell EVs at the 100-mile cheaper price point, and its a good profit strategy with greater volume.
 
charge said:
No, actually the FFE is only 60 lbs heavier than a Bolt, (not 100) which isn't much. Also, the FFE has a wider, roomier cabin than a Bolt. The Bolt is a smaller vehicle. Also, given the tall box Bolt with passengers sitting higher, and an extra high lump of batteries near the rear, the Bolt's cg is likely not too different than the FFE's cg.
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The FFE may be wider than the Bolt, but it is by no means roomier. The biggest downfall, aside from lack of DCQC capability, of the FFE is the relatively cramped quarters and poor cargo space. There is very little leg room in the back of the FFE while the Bolt comfortably accommodates adult rear passengers. Cargo space in the FFE, due to the intrusion of the batteries, is comparable to a Spark EV, not a Bolt.

We looked beyond the size constraints of the FFE when we got ours because we also had a LEAF which has more interior space, and shortly after got a RAV4 EV.
 
Devin said:
The FFE may be wider than the Bolt, but it is by no means roomier. ....We looked beyond the size constraints of the FFE when we got ours because we also had a LEAF which has more interior space, and shortly after got a RAV4 EV.
Click to expand...
Cabin Width Comparisons:
Focus Hip Room: 53.9"
Leaf: 51.7"
Bolt: 51.6"
That was my point, fact-based. You lose about 2" of lateral room when driving a Leaf or Bolt compared to a roomier Focus.
Your points about cargo are correct though. Since the Focus Electric is not a long-trip car, it is adequate for hauling most things on errands.

An electric car should really be a 2nd car, not your ONLY car needed to haul lots of people and cargo.
Therefore, the thing that counts most is lateral roominess where you sit, not the ability to haul lumber.

It should be interesting to see how the tall-box Bolt handles having an antiquated cheap rear suspension combined with a narrow track with 3600 lbs.
Car and Driver magazine may rip it to shreds. You might say it doesn't matter how badly it drives, since range is the "only" thing that matters, but there really is more to a car than just range. :!:
 
charge said:
Devin said:
The FFE may be wider than the Bolt, but it is by no means roomier. ....We looked beyond the size constraints of the FFE when we got ours because we also had a LEAF which has more interior space, and shortly after got a RAV4 EV.
Click to expand...
Cabin Width Comparisons:
Focus Hip Room: 53.9"
Leaf: 51.7"
Bolt: 51.6"
That was my point, fact-based. You lose about 2" of lateral room when driving a Leaf or Bolt compared to a roomier Focus.
Your points about cargo are correct though. Since the Focus Electric is not a long-trip car, it is adequate for hauling most things on errands.
Click to expand...

Leg room is much more important than hip room, at least to me, because my family and friends are usually taller than they are wide. The Focus back seat has lousy leg room compared to the Bolt. The FFE has 33.3" while the Bolt has 34.7".

Your hip room figures are inaccurate, the Bolt offers 53.7" of front hip room. Here's the source: http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/autoshows-list.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/Jan/naias/chevrolet/volt/0112-volt-2016-intro.html

charge said:
An electric car should really be a 2nd car, not your ONLY car needed to haul lots of people and cargo.
Therefore, the thing that counts most is lateral roominess where you sit, not the ability to haul lumber.
Click to expand...

An EV can be your primary car and should be versatile to handle a variety of tasks within reason if so. Choosing a Bolt or a LEAF over a FFE means you can carry a bigger object more easily. For example, Costco toilet paper will not fit in the trunk of the FFE without rearranging it.

For the handful of times per year I might truly need a bigger vehicle, I can use the ZipCar Ford Transit that lives 3 blocks from me.

We chose an FFE because it was our second car for commuting purposes. I wouldn't choose an FFE as a primary car because it doesn't offer sufficient versatility for that purpose.

charge said:
It should be interesting to see how the tall-box Bolt handles having an antiquated cheap rear suspension combined with a narrow track with 3600 lbs.
Car and Driver magazine may rip it to shreds. You might say it doesn't matter how badly it drives, since range is the "only" thing that matters, but there really is more to a car than just range.
Click to expand...
Yes, the FFE is a very enjoyable car to drive - but most people don't care what Car and Driver has to say about handling when they choose an EV. If driving purity and sporty handling is that important, then an ICE Mazda or BMW (or the FFE) is probably a better fit. I enjoy driving a sports car as much as the next young male, and in a perfect world I'd have a DCQC-equipped 150+ mile EV version of a Mazda MX-5 RF. But I don't live in a perfect world, and for 90% of my driving needs practicality, comfort, and range are a bigger priority.
 
Devin said:
charge said:
Cabin Width Comparisons:
Focus Hip Room: 53.9"
Leaf: 51.7"
Bolt: 51.6"
That was my point, fact-based. You lose about 2" of lateral room when driving a Leaf or Bolt compared to a roomier Focus.
Click to expand...

Your hip room figures are inaccurate, the Bolt offers 53.7" of front hip room. Here's the source: http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/autoshows-list.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/Jan/naias/chevrolet/volt/0112-volt-2016-intro.html
Click to expand...
Nope, you cited hip room for the Volt, not the Bolt. Common mistake. Try this instead (for the Bolt) http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us.../us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.html

The Volt is dimensionally very close to the Focus, but the Bolt is based on the smaller Sonic platform.

When the Focus gets the newest higher energy density LG Chem batteries, at about the same time the Bolt comes out, then its range goes to 100 miles, and it should be thousands less than the smaller Bolt. I predict the Bolt won't handle as well as other electric cars like the mythical Tesla Model 3, or Focus Electric, and maybe not as well as Hyundai's new one arriving soon. Car handling is one of those things that needs to be there for the money.
 
charge said:
Devin said:
charge said:
Cabin Width Comparisons:
Focus Hip Room: 53.9"
Leaf: 51.7"
Bolt: 51.6"
That was my point, fact-based. You lose about 2" of lateral room when driving a Leaf or Bolt compared to a roomier Focus.
Click to expand...

Your hip room figures are inaccurate, the Bolt offers 53.7" of front hip room. Here's the source: http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/autoshows-list.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/Jan/naias/chevrolet/volt/0112-volt-2016-intro.html
Click to expand...
Nope, you cited hip room for the Volt, not the Bolt. Common mistake. Try this instead (for the Bolt) http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us.../us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.html

The Volt is dimensionally very close to the Focus, but the Bolt is based on the smaller Sonic platform.

When the Focus gets the newest higher energy density LG Chem batteries, at about the same time the Bolt comes out, then its range goes to 100 miles, and it should be thousands less than the smaller Bolt. I predict the Bolt won't handle as well as other electric cars like the mythical Tesla Model 3, or Focus Electric, and maybe not as well as Hyundai's new one arriving soon. Car handling is one of those things that needs to be there for the money.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. Google directed me to the Volt page when searching for the Bolt. The Bolt figures highlight that it is very comparable in dimensions to the FFE, with some exceptions like 3.3" more rear legroom for the Bolt than the FFE and 2.7 cubic feet more cargo capacity.

It is a strange argument to me that you're quick to dismiss range (fully double in the Bolt versus the future FFE), claiming handling is more important, yet you're very concerned about a couple of inches of hip room and overlook the FFE's cargo capacity - one of the car's biggest downfalls. You suggest that handling is necessary "for the money" but automakers sell millions of expensive pickup trucks and SUVs, not vehicles known for their grace and many used only for the suburban commute.
 
Where's the popcorn icon? This discussion is getting interesting.

I think there is such a broad range of what people want, evidenced by the literally hundreds of different vehicles currently for sale. Cheap ones, expensive ones. Big ones, small ones. Passenger, utility. 2wd, Awd, 4wd. etc etc etc

EV Range is something big, but only for a while. And yes, I think there will be some EV buyers who think 100 miles is good enough for their needs and go with a Focus Electric with a smoother ride, larger footprint etc. There will also be many that need longer range and will go for the Bolt EV.

Once the general public start to realize the EV benefit, there will be large numbers of people in each of the categories and we will see all sorts of electrc offerings from the automakers.
 

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