SoCalif
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:36 am

d2170 wrote:Have GM scheduled a visit yet?



yes, here for 4+ hours and went over every detail, and now will be waiting for the outcome.

SoCalif
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:39 am

It seemed that way to me when I received the phone call.

If you leave it on and in D, and open the door, it self locks then adds a parking brake. (acxts like the Volt)

If you leave just with it on and in P, it honks at you.

If you turn it off and in D and dont lock the door, it self locks (meaning all is off and in P)

mtndrew1 wrote:This all seems so implausible.

When you say you left the car and the doors locked automatically, did you verify by pulling a door handle to make sure they were locked? How are you certain they locked? Could the car have chirped to let you know that you shut the door and walked away while it was still running?

The way many of these systems work (FCA, BMW, etc) is that if you attempt to put the car in Park and fail to do so, it reverts to Neutral. This is what killed the young Star Trek actor Anton Yelchin.

Yelchin drove his Grand Cherokee to the top of his sloped driveway and with a shift mechanism similar to the Bolt, he thought he engaged Park. However the car was still either slightly moving while he tried to engage Park (imperceptible) or he failed to fully push the lever towards Park and the system put the car in Neutral. There is no visual or tactile cue that an FCA shifter like this has engaged a gear (much like the Bolt). He then walked down his driveway to get the mail and his Jeep was slowly and silently rolling backwards down the grade without him knowing. The Jeep rolled into him and crushed him against the mailbox. FCA has subsequently changed the Grand Cherokee shifter to a conventional PRNDL arrangement.

Can you try parking your car in the garage, putting it in Neutral (don't switch off the car), shutting the door, and walking away? My hypothesis here is that you didn't fully engage Park, forgot to shut off the car's power switch, shut the door, and then you walked away. The car chirped the horn to alert you of the problem and you assumed it was chirping to tell you the doors were locked. Like the Volt, after a period of time, the Bolt might shut off the ignition by itself if left in a running state unoccupied. The car would now be powered down and in Neutral, allowing for either slight movement or other outside influence, all the while you assumed the door was locked and the car was in Park.

Just a wild-ass guess.

SoCalif
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 pm

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:40 am

You cant leave it on and in drive as it will jerk forward then stop, turn off, go into park and add the parking brake ((in an order like the Volt)). (like the Volt)

mtndrew1 wrote:
leodoggie wrote:
It is all speculation at this point, but in your scenario of the car being left in neutral, how do you explain the crushed workbench, that took the car being left in reverse and hitting the workbench at some speed.


Just trying to eliminate variables here. I think the concept of the car turning itself on without keys, putting itself in reverse, and driving itself into a bench is borderline impossible.

If we can determine that the car could have been left running in Neutral and that the OP would have received the same auditory feedback that they assumed meant that car was locked, that means we have a car with nothing to prevent it from gently rolling or from being pushed without some sort of bizarre electrical gremlin starting the car and engaging a "gear" without keys. That's a pretty big distinction.

boltage
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:50 am

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:45 pm

michael wrote:With regard to "user error", I originally assumed that the Toyota runaway problem was simply another example of "user error" until a close friend, very competent and calm, experienced it on the freeway with his entire family. He managed to bring the car to a halt with the engine still racing, he told me, shut it down, and never again purchased another Toyota product.


Was his incident involving floor mats getting stuck in the accelerator, or the accelerator mechanism sticking? There were eventually two different recalls for these issues. Now, owner's manuals for all cars are filled with warnings about only using the correct floor mats, making sure that they are secured to the hooks or posts, and never stacking floor mats.

I remember in driver's education decades ago that they taught how to deal with then-common mechanical failures, such as the accelerator getting stuck (cruddy or corroded cables, etc., and even OEM floor mats were often not custom fit for specific models or secured with hooks or posts), brake failure (when cars often had only one hydraulic brake circuit instead of two, so a leak would lose all hydraulic braking instead of half of it), and hood latch failure (corrosion and poor quality). But perhaps expectations of car reliability have gotten better since then.

boltage
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:50 am

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:50 pm

mtndrew1 wrote:
roundpeg wrote:Blaming bad results on "user error" is becoming the generic excuse technologists use for foisting poorly designed systems on unsuspecting users. I see little practical difference between bugs and design concept errors.


I'm not dismissing that this could be a design fault and I'm of the general opinion that automakers should stop tinkering with such an important interface so well-understood by all drivers (PRNDL lever).


Agree that changing the user interface in a way that results in a higher rate of user error is generally not a good idea.

Pigwich
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:01 pm

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:15 pm

I'm not dismissing that this could be a design fault and I'm of the general opinion that automakers should stop tinkering with such an important interface so well-understood by all drivers (PRNDL lever).


Nevermind the fact that Reverse in the Bolt is basically the same as 1st gear on a stick shift... RIP Anton Yelchin - Tactile feedback is very important.... and I'm SURE they could still figure out a way to get the car in to park automatically even with a "real" gear shifter. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

User avatar
roundpeg
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:37 pm
Location: South California

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:41 pm

Not that going through R to get to P ever made much sense. It's one of those arbitrary things we just got used to. I'm not opposed to tinkering with the shifting UI but these solutions have be more fully thought out than what we've seen.

boltage
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:50 am

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:56 pm

Pigwich wrote:and I'm SURE they could still figure out a way to get the car in to park automatically even with a "real" gear shifter. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Before push button starts, some recent cars with automatic transmission refused to release the key from the ignition lock unless the transmission was in park (no such enforcement in most manual transmission cars, though supposedly some Saabs forced you to put it in reverse to release the key). However, that did not enforce use of the parking brake, which seems to be rarely used these days (I always use the parking brake when parking, but most do not, and some recent cars seemingly hide the electronic parking brake control -- at least the one in the Bolt is obviously located).

JupiterMoon
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:16 am

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:31 am

SoCalif wrote:Here is a strange one, but seriously happened.

I was out of town (the only driver of the Bolt) I get a call saying there was a crash in the garage.

BOTH keys were out of the vehicle, car self locked and shut down in park from the previous night.

Wife heard a crash, goes to the garage and sees that the car backed up and ran into a work bench pushing in a wall.

granted, hard to believe, but both keys out of the car, she was in the house (no other drivers here), I was 40 miles away, and somehow the car moved????

Insurance called, dealership notified, GM messaged.

Just FYI


It's your wife....100%. lol

CGameProgrammer
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: Bolt self started/moved, and backed into garage wall/cabinet

Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:23 am

Jupiter is probably correct but the black box will be proof.

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