GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:25 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

CCS Network

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:27 pm

The Bolt is a great second-generation BEV. One of its biggest limitations, however, is charging on the road. It can charge reasonably fast, although it could be faster (the Model 3, by comparison, peaks out at about 2x the charge rate of the Bolt). And yet I think the larger problem is the lack of availability of chargers. My Bolt would be so much better if there was a CCS Network like Tesla's Supercharger Network. There is hope that this is coming.

GM has very publicly stayed out of the infrastructure game.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101774_gm-wont-fund-ccs-fast-charging-sites-for-2017-chevy-bolt-ev
GreenCarReports wrote:From CEO Mary Barra: "We are not actively working on providing infrastructure [for the Bolt EV]."


Meanwhile, BMW has teamed with Nissan to help spread CCS-capable quick chargers in many urban areas.
https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/bmw-nissan-dc-fast-charging-stations-electric-vehicles/
Electrek wrote:While the stations are specially built for Nissan’s fleet of LEAFs and BMW’s fleet of i3s, the network is publicly available to all electric vehicles with CHAdeMO or SAE Combo (CCS) connectors.


After the dieselgate fallout, VW was assigned large fines. Part of this money has been used to create Electrify America, which has big plans to roll out a nationwide CCS network.
https://insideevs.com/volkswagen-releases-electrify-america-plan/
InsideEVs wrote:Following the Dieselgate scandal, Volkswagen was ordered to make significant investments into electric vehicles in the U.S. The vast majority of the investments were to be focused on charging infrastructure.


Starting in Europe, a collaboration of BMW, Mercedes, Ford, and VW has formed Ionity to build out a CCS network. They recently announced plans to cover the continental US as well.
https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/map-ionity-ultra-fast-charging-network/
Electrek wrote:This new network is believed by many to be the most important electric vehicle charging infrastructure effort since Tesla’s Supercharger network.


All in all, this shapes up to a very promising future. Let's use this thread to keep abreast of developments and share news/experiences.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

winterescape
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:35 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: CCS Network

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:53 pm

While your first quote is often referenced to show GM's lack of commitment to supporting the build out of the required charging infrastructure, I am optimistic based on Mary Barra's presentation Nov 15th 2017

"INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT WILL ADDRESS CUSTOMER PAIN POINT
We are committed to a robust EV infrastructure to
accelerate adoption of electric vehicles:
We will partner, incentivize and/or invest when necessary
We are using OnStar and Maven data to optimize charger locations
and how customers use them
We are working with utilities on how to optimize electric grid usage
Intend to deploy API’s for use by utilities/charging companies in 1Q’18
"

* Slide 18
https://www.gm.com/content/dam/gm/event ... 11-15-2017

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:25 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:43 am

Thank you for posting that. I know originally, GM was outspoken against any infrastructure report. I thought I remembered signs of them changing their mind, but a quick google search did not turn up anything. I figured I must have remembered wrong.

I hope GM does support infrastructure in some way. They have a great EV, this is its biggest challenge.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

SparkE
Moderator
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Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:55 am

Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel should be an actual significant issue for many people (although many people, including prospective buyers, think it is) - people just don't do it that often. When they do, I think that low charging rate is the biggest problem for long-distance travel - for ALL current BEVs - more of a problem than limited CCS coverage. For those that might actually use their electric for travel, it currently takes way too long to "re-fuel" - people are much more likely to just use ICE when traveling.

1) I don't think that many people drive over 200 miles one way very often. Myself, I've done it 3 times in the past year (four times if I go back 14 months). I also think that the vast majority of charging is done at home, followed by charging at work (or in parking structures). There are 5 BEVs within a block of me, including mine (one block each way, two blocks total). If I include the double-block behind me, add 4 more. Every single one of them is owned by a multi-car household. NONE of us use the BEV for long distance travelling. (To be fair, only three of the vehicles have a range over 110 miles - two Bolts and one Tesla 'S'.) But still - even the Bolt and the Tesla families take the ICE vehicle when traveling. It isn't that the fast charging infrastructure isn't there - I live in the San Francisco Bay Area - we have infrastructure out the wazoo. From Reno, NV to San Diego - no problem of DCFCs not available (and the Tesla, he could drive across the country!)

2) The reason my neighbors don't travel long distances in their BEVs is because it is a pain to fill up. True, part of it is the worry that *maybe* we'll have to wait at a DCFC for a plug to become available. But the real reason is that nobody wants to stop for 30-45 minutes every 90 miles. EVEN THE TESLA DRIVER would rather drive his gasmobile down to L.A. (three times since last June). He doesn't want to stop for 30 minutes of refueling every 120 miles with his family in the car. Sure he stops when driving down in his ICE - WHEN he wants, WHERE he wants and FOR AS LONG as he wants; he stops at parks to let the kids run, or a 5 minute stop to pee and stretch, or a 15 minute stop at a drive-through or to buy sandwiches. He is NOT limited to the only 3 or 4 or 6 places he MUST stop, with not much choice of what to do and limits on how long he must stay.

So, my take is :
- BEVs can be successful even if massive amounts of money aren't spent on oodles of DCFCs. The EVs will be used 97% of the time, for the everyday driving that families do. Yes, that means that people with ONE car are going to be put off until the infrastructure is much better. If only 5% of the U.S. multi-vehicle families bought just one BEV every 10 years, sales of electric vehicles would still go through the roof.

- I will not be using an electric vehicle for long distance travel until they can charge at a rate of 150 kW, up to ~50% SoC (and batteries of at least 80 kWh usable). If I can add 35 kWh (120 miles) in 15 minutes, or 55 kWh (200 miles) in 30 minutes, I'd suck it up and drive electric all the time. But I am NOT going to stand around for an hour to add 140 miles - that just isn't going to happen. And I bet most people feel the same way. That doesn't mean I won't have a BEV, or that I won't be driving it almost all of the time. I just want the convenience of gasoline for long-distance drives : 5-10 minutes, add 400 miles.

- Although lack of infrastructure is a (somewhat) valid excuse, the real problem is that the cars don't charge fast enough - not even Teslas. Seriously, even if the country's interstates were covered in 60 kW fast charging stations, most people would be using their gasoline vehicles to drive over 300 miles away (well, after the first few times and the novelty wore off). Ask the guy whose wife was GLARING at him because it was 20F outside and they had been waiting over 30 minutes for the Bolt to get enough of a charge to limp home (at 20 kW, because it was so cold) : "are you taking the Bolt or your gasoline vehicle next time you and your wife drive 300 miles away to visit family?" Or the guy with 2 young kids, parked by the motorway for an hour waiting for the Bolt battery to get up to 45 kWh so that they can drive for another 150 miles ...

winterescape
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:35 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:53 pm

SparkE wrote:Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel is a real issue ... don't think that many people drive over 200 miles one way very often.


All good points, however my personal experience is much different. My Wife's family lives 241 miles from our home, we travel to see them about 10x per year. If I had any DCFC stop on the route, we could stop for a 1/2 hour, typical anyway, and be on our way.

For me, long distance travel is the only issue
as you mention, mostly I charge at home or at one of the many free public level 2 stations in our area when it is convenient

Other than that we just don't do long distance road trips, so having 2 BEVs would work for us or we could rent a car for the exceptions. GM has listed as a "significant improvement" "Improved DC FastCharge" for the next generation BEV (2021). Interpert that as you like, maybe I am overly optimistic, but I read that as being able to make good use of the new 150kW units being installed...

SmokingRubber
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:32 pm
Location: Pismo Beach, California

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:56 pm

Battery technology is advancing FAST. The next generation of batteries will blow the doors off anything on the market today.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tosh ... x-minutes/

It may take some time before all the manufacturers are on the ship, but the ship is boarding, and getting ready to depart. Hard to say who will arrive first, but I wouldn't bet money against a company that starts with a T. I think they designed that ship, so if they're not first, they won't be far behind.

In just a couple years, range and charging anxiety will be on the pile with rotary phones. I sure wish I owned land with a pile of lithium under it. The guy that owns that pile will be the first trillionaire.
2017 Chevrolet Bolt Premier (DD)
2016 Mazda CX-5 Gran Touring (Wife's DD)
2013 Toyota FJ Cruiser (4x4 beachmobile)
2016 Mazda 3 Touring

SparkE
Moderator
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Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:16 pm

SmokingRubber wrote:Battery technology is advancing FAST. The next generation of batteries will blow the doors off anything on the market today.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tosh ... x-minutes/

It may take some time before all the manufacturers are on the ship, but the ship is boarding, and getting ready to depart. Hard to say who will arrive first, but I wouldn't bet money against a company that starts with a T. I think they designed that ship, so if they're not first, they won't be far behind.

In just a couple years, range and charging anxiety will be on the pile with rotary phones. I sure wish I owned land with a pile of lithium under it. The guy that owns that pile will be the first trillionaire.


Companies love to claim that they've discovered the Next Big Thing in lithium-ion batteries, and Toshiba is no exception. I'm not holding my breath for actual appearance in vehicles.

From the article :
- double the lithium storage capacity
- prototype version recharged in as little as six minutes
- 90 percent of its capacity after 5,000 charge-discharge cycles
- Toshiba is far from the first company to claim a big breakthrough
- questions left unanswered: The biggest one is cost -- Toshiba made no mention of the new SCiB's cost per kWh,

And concerning Tesla - they just invested a *fortune* in the Gigafactory. Their partner (battery technology) is ... Panasonic. So I'm not betting on 'The T' at all in this situation.

SparkE
Moderator
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:53 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:52 pm

winterescape wrote:
SparkE wrote:Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel is a real issue ... don't think that many people drive over 200 miles one way very often.


All good points, however my personal experience is much different. My Wife's family lives 241 miles from our home, we travel to see them about 10x per year. If I had any DCFC stop on the route, we could stop for a 1/2 hour, typical anyway, and be on our way.

For me, long distance travel is the only issue
as you mention, mostly I charge at home or at one of the many free public level 2 stations in our area when it is convenient

Other than that we just don't do long distance road trips, so having 2 BEVs would work for us or we could rent a car for the exceptions. GM has listed as a "significant improvement" "Improved DC FastCharge" for the next generation BEV (2021). Interpert that as you like, maybe I am overly optimistic, but I read that as being able to make good use of the new 150kW units being installed...


A few comments / questions :
- 10 times a year is NOT (in my opinion) "a lot". However - I bet it is more than most.

Q: So you did or did not buy an EV? If you bought an EV, then "long distance travel" wasn't that big of an issue, was it (you take another car for those few trips, just like me)? If you didn't buy an EV, you mean that you refused to buy an EV because you couldn't use that one car to travel - when you could always take the other car for the trip?

I'm not saying that having 4-12 plug DCFCs every 30 miles wouldn't help EV adoption. Or that more DCFCs are a must for the entire nation to move to BEVs for road travel. That's not my point. My point was that everything is in place NOW, TODAY for a large part of U.S. drivers (not necessarily a majority) to buy ONE battery-electric vehicle with virtually no downside. There are more families who could easily switch to electric than there are electrics being manufactured - already.

Who can easily switch (most, or all, of) :
--> multi-car households! One BEV, one ICE : this is the biggie
--> easy access to charging (the other biggie) : either a reserved spot in a home with 240V, or public charging at/near the apt complex
- "family" doesn't realistically ever have both drivers needing to drive over 200 miles in a day
- doesn't have to have a "specific, niche" vehicle (for example, a contractor might need a pickup, which isn't a valid travel vehicle for the family)
- either driver could readily take either car on any given day (related to above) : take whichever vehicle makes sense for that day
- "Long" distance can be done in the ICE (ICE must meet travel-trip requirements, whatever they must be)

Are more CCS charging stations needed to make BEVs more suitable for single drivers (one person households)? yes.

Are more CCS charging stations needed to make BEVs more suitable for "everybody"? yes.

Is a massive build-out of CCS stations by car manufacturers needed for BEVs to continue selling more and more? No.

BEVs do NOT have to be useful for everyone (neither do mini-vans or pickups or SUVs) - even in a sugar-coated future were there are as many charging plugs as gas pumps. (Remember that MOST people usually "fill-up" their BEV at home and/or work MOST of the time - the "filling" infrastructure is already in place.) Once more people buy them, the need for DCFCs will go up, the usage/ROI of DCFCs will be better, and they will start to be installed in more places, it will be easier to use the BEVs for longer-distance travel, and BEVs will be attractive to more people. TODAY, BEVs meet the needs of at least 5% of the American driving public - and far, far, far fewer than that are buying them. So why aren't more people switching? Perception, not reality.

If the statement is "More DCFCs are needed to make BEVs attractive to at least 50% of the population" - yes, that's true. I also think it's a ridiculous position to take ... in 2018. Personally, I think that by 2022 most cross-country routes (large volume E-W and N-S Interstates) will have as many DCFC options (the density) as I do today in the SF Bay area (which is much better than California as a whole - there are over 150 DCFCs in a volume less than 100 miles N-S and 50 miles E-W {with a big Bay full of water in the middle of it all taking up 30-40% of it}). It will be possible to drive coast-to-coast all-electric. Not that very many will - just the crazies. Once we have 150 kW charging, *I* will be willing to drive electric for regional 600-900 mile trips, as will many others I think (two 30 min stops during a day's driving is fine), but anybody who drives electric for a trip of thousands of miles is just crazy (unless there is some over-riding "something else", such as moving from Oregon to Virginia and driving the car there).

winterescape
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:35 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: CCS Network

Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:56 pm

SparkE wrote:Q: So you did or did not buy an EV? If you bought an EV, then "long distance travel" wasn't that big of an issue


I leased an EV with the DCFC option, long distance travel was a big issue for me, so before leasing I contacted the folks in NYS that were planning to install them and asked "when the DC fast charge stations that had been announced would be installed?" and I was told "before the end of the year"

disappointingly, nothing yet...

I understand your reasoning regarding justifying EV adoption and that many folks could make it work, however, as you point out, the lack of DCFC infrastructure is limiting the # of folks that will even consider an EV, yes it is perception VS reality, but again for me personally, if DCFC was in place it would cover my use case perfectly, thus for me it is the only issue.

If you modified your first sentence in your original post from "Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel is a real issue"
to "Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel should be a significant issue for most people" then we are in full agreement :)

SparkE
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Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CCS Network

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:22 am

winterescape wrote:
If you modified your first sentence in your original post to "Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel should be a significant issue for most people" then we are in full agreement :)


Done. ;)

Well, changed it to : Frankly, I don't think that long-distance travel should be an actual significant issue for many people

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