Celos
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Purchased a Bolt LT from FH Dailey Chevrolet in San Leandro CA in early September. (But not Labor Day weekend.)

Comfort and convenience package and DC fast charger options. $35k before taxes etc.

Worked with internet sales and had offers from a few Bay Area dealers as well as credit union service and GMS pricing. This was the best I found.

Fun car! Thanks to this forum for giving me a sense of what others have paid, which was helpful in negotiating.

bluebolt
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:15 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:48 pm

My understanding of how GM applies the $7,500 federal incentive to the Bolt lease agrees with what GetOffYourGas posted. In other words,

- $2,500 is applied directly to the capitalized cost
- $5,000 is used to inflate the residual value

Now, I might be wrong about any or all of the above. But I hope that I'm right, because this structure favors exactly what I want.

I do not intend to buy the Bolt at the end of the lease (because I assume it will be obsoleted by next-gen EVs). So the higher the residual value, the lower the monthly payments, and the better for me. I am fine paying a bit of interest on the higher residual value in return.

If I am propelled into a "perpetual leasing cycle", great! That is also exactly what I want. I've owned several cars in the past, and I don't want to own cars any more -- only lease them.

Overall I think that GM's lease structure aligns well with my goals (assuming that my understanding above is correct).

LeftieBiker
Posts: 792
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 am

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:08 pm

You're still not understanding how GM applies this $5k. They apply it to the residual. If you lease and return, it saves you $5000. Plus you don't have to pay interest on that $5000, so it really saves you $5300.


If you lease and return, it saves you about $300, and gives GM $4700. I don't see a reality here in which GMAC keeping $5k of the tax credit saves the lessee that same $5k. I think you're confusing that $300 saved with somehow having the whole lease discounted by $5k. That is what would happen only if GMAC applied the $5k to the down payment, as NMAC does, instead of keeping it and raising the residual.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1076
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:25 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
You're still not understanding how GM applies this $5k. They apply it to the residual. If you lease and return, it saves you $5000. Plus you don't have to pay interest on that $5000, so it really saves you $5300.


If you lease and return, it saves you about $300, and gives GM $4700. I don't see a reality here in which GMAC keeping $5k of the tax credit saves the lessee that same $5k. I think you're confusing that $300 saved with somehow having the whole lease discounted by $5k. That is what would happen only if GMAC applied the $5k to the down payment, as NMAC does, instead of keeping it and raising the residual.


The lease being discounted by $5k is exactly what happens when GM inflates the residual by the like amount. On a lease, you pay the purchase price - residual, plus interest on the difference. So a $5k higher residual results in $5k less payments by you, the leasor. The $300 you keep quoting is the extra interest you are not paying on the borrowed amount. So yes, you save $5300 if you lease + return compared to if GM simply kept the money as you claim.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:19 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:41 pm

+1^, yes, that^
Leaf SL 2012-2014
Leaf SV 2014-2017
Bolt LT 2017-
6.72 kW Solar

GernBlanston
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:28 am

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:00 am

Purchased our LT with every available option, including the false floor in the trunk, for $3,000
under MSRP. Evergreen Chevrolet in Issaquah was advertising $3,500 under MSRP for their LTs
and $4,000 under MSRP for Premiers at the time, so we told the local dealer that we didn't really
want to drive to Issaquah to buy a car, but that we gladly would for 3 grand. Done deal.
If it's not foggy
and your foglights are on
you are a doofus.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 792
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 am

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:59 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
You're still not understanding how GM applies this $5k. They apply it to the residual. If you lease and return, it saves you $5000. Plus you don't have to pay interest on that $5000, so it really saves you $5300.


If you lease and return, it saves you about $300, and gives GM $4700. I don't see a reality here in which GMAC keeping $5k of the tax credit saves the lessee that same $5k. I think you're confusing that $300 saved with somehow having the whole lease discounted by $5k. That is what would happen only if GMAC applied the $5k to the down payment, as NMAC does, instead of keeping it and raising the residual.


The lease being discounted by $5k is exactly what happens when GM inflates the residual by the like amount. On a lease, you pay the purchase price - residual, plus interest on the difference. So a $5k higher residual results in $5k less payments by you, the leasor. The $300 you keep quoting is the extra interest you are not paying on the borrowed amount. So yes, you save $5300 if you lease + return compared to if GM simply kept the money as you claim.


There is just one problem with this argument: it confuses "inflates" with "raises." The inflated residual is generally agreed to be more than the car is actually worth, so it isn't a "savings" in any rational sense, because GMAC has also pocketed $5k in return for doing it. You can always raise the residual in a lease deal, and the lessee will get lower payments, at no cost other than it being more expensive to buy the car. I know this because this is exactly the kind of deal that I got with my 2013 Leaf: $149 a month payments and a $23k residual. So why was my deal so good? Because NMAC also applied the full $7500 tax credit to the CCR. We wouldn't be having this seemingly endless argument if GM were simply passing on all or most of the tax credit, and also raising the residual. Instead, we having people lining up to defend GM (although that line has gotten smaller lately) by trying to say that taking $5k up front and then charging another $5k for purchase is good for the lessee. GMAC is relying on people to keep repeating their spurious line on this, and in large part it's working. There really is one born every minute, I guess...

DucRider
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:56 am

LeftieBiker wrote:You can always raise the residual in a lease deal, and the lessee will get lower payments, at no cost other than it being more expensive to buy the car.

I think we've discovered the root of the problem.
You truly believe that a finance company can raise the residual to any amount they want with no financial consequences to them?

You are familiar with Nissan offering thousand of dollars off the agreed upon residual price to entice people to purchase them. And they still have thousand of returned cars to sell at auction? Nope, no cost to them at all :roll:

When they raise the residual, they get LESS money.
LeftieBiker wrote:The inflated residual is generally agreed to be more than the car is actually worth, so it isn't a "savings" in any rational sense, because GMAC has also pocketed $5k in return for doing it.

If they raise the residual by $5K, they get $5K less in "rent" on the lease. Even if 25% of lessees purchased for above market value (highly unlikely) they would only see $1,250 of that back. The higher the residual is above market value, the lower the percentage of conversions to a sale without a substantial cash incentive.

A lease is not a purchase contract, no matter how desperately you want it to be. It is a means to "rent" (the actual terminology in the lease documents) a vehicle for relatively low monthly payments.

And I'm not defending GM Financial. I think it is a BIG mistake to structure the lease the way they do. Not because they are ripping people off, but because they will be in the same boat as Nissan and have to offer a huge discount at lease end or have to liquidate returned lease vehicles at auction. Either avenue is very likely going to cost them much more than the $5K they "pocketed".

Let's look at your current LEAF.
$149/mo x 36 months = $5,364
Add in the $7,500 tax credit and they will net $12,864.
You are obviously NOT going to purchase it for $23K, so they will sell it at auction for ~$8K (if they are lucky). But they are not "screwing you" because they showed the $7,500 as a CCR? Would you feel any different if they showed $2,500 as a CCR and a $28K residual? Would they "pocket" that extra $5K? Or would their bottom line be the same?
They will get <$21K in total for the car either way, but since you have no intentions of purchasing at lease end, you don't care what the residual is. You only care that the monthly payment is $149 (and it made you happy to see the $7500 as a CCR).

GM Financial is not screwing you any more than NFS did. In order to get the benefits of an artificially low payment, you have to be willing to return the car at lease end. Either they will offer it to you at a lower price than the residual in the contract, or they own the car (and have to sell it for wholesale value).
Gary

2014 Honda Fit EV - lease ends Jan 2019

LeftieBiker
Posts: 792
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 am

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:19 am

I was indeed perfectly willing to return the car at lease end. Thanks to lease extensions I haven't yet had to do that. Instead I've saved a huge amount in payments over the 4+ years I've driven the car.

I think we've discovered the root of the problem.
You truly believe that a finance company can raise the residual to any amount they want with no financial consequences to them?


This is my biggest problem with you. I wrote no such thing, so stop with the strawman arguments. My point was that raising the residual is not somehow linked to keeping part of the tax credit - they are separate acts. When you folks stop acting as if raising the residual is a great thing even when GMAC pockets $5k of the tax credit, I'll stop calling you on it.

DucRider
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:25 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I was indeed perfectly willing to return the car at lease end. Thanks to lease extensions I haven't yet had to do that. Instead I've saved a huge amount in payments over the 4+ years I've driven the car.

I think we've discovered the root of the problem.
You truly believe that a finance company can raise the residual to any amount they want with no financial consequences to them?


This is my biggest problem with you. I wrote no such thing, so stop with the strawman arguments. My point was that raising the residual is not somehow linked to keeping part of the tax credit - they are separate acts. When you folks stop acting as if raising the residual is a great thing even when GMAC pockets $5k of the tax credit, I'll stop calling you on it.

They CAN be independent acts, but raising the residual costs them that same amount of $ off their bottom line. They can offset it with part of the tax credit, or take it as a delayed reduction in the selling price of the car.
If your residual on your current lease was $28K and they only showed a $2,500 CCR, would you care?

You are free to go to a 3rd party leasing company that will give you the $7500 as a CCR and assign a residual in the 30% range. Youy payments will likely be $500+/mo, but you will get the full benefit of the tax credit and be able to purchase the car for something close to market value at lease end.

If you want the lower monthly payments, remember TANSTAAFL.
Gary

2014 Honda Fit EV - lease ends Jan 2019

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