How much EV range do you actually need?

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boltage

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Jan 11, 2017
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451
The Hyundai Ioniq thread seems to have run off into a discussion about EV range and buyer perception.

Perhaps it may be easier to figure out how much EV range you actually need by asking yourself these questions:

A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly).
B. Mileage in a day done occasionally.
C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household.
D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc..
E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car.

For me:

A. 50-70 miles.
B. 100, 180, 250 miles. For these trips, recharging on the way out would be a hassle, but recharging on the way home would be ok.
C. Not sure, probably not.
D. Probably +20% for normal driving, +30% when trip involves roof rack and cargo.
E. When the distance to empty shows less than 100 miles upon approaching home.

That the frequent A trips are up to 70 miles makes the shorter range EVs less desirable for me, since I would always be running them close to "empty" with little reserve for side trips or loss of range due to cold weather, roof cargo, etc.. That leaves the EV choice for me as:

1. 120 or so mile EV (e.g. Ioniq, 2017 e-Golf) but keep another car or rent cars for some of the B trips. Renting is less convenient since some of the B trips involve roof rack and cargo.
2. 200+ mile EV.
 
I could easily get by with a 107 mile Leaf, because we also have a Prius PHEV. I'd prefer to have the buffer provided by the Ioniq, though, especially in Winter. I'm also not considering any more "85 mile" range cars - I'm tired of turning the heat down on longer Winter trips, and worrying, however mildly, about making it back.
 
I have a mobile business and regularly I have 100+ mile days with little time/place for charging during the day. Add some anti-worry margin and cold weather tolerance and I think 125 would be an absolute minimum for me.

For the time being I think I would just take my ICE car on road trips.
 
I drive <30 miles most days. Occassionally 30-100 miles in a day, and more often than that, I drive 250-300 miles in a day. For example, tomorrow I leave town to visit family that lives 250 miles away. So 250 miles on Friday, and another 250 miles on Sunday. I take trips like that 2-3x per month on average.

So yeah, a ~80 mile EV + PHEV (like I currently have) works great. Also a 200+ mile BEV with decent DCQC network (like only Tesla has today, but CCS is growing) could eventually replace the PHEV.
 
A. Less than 20 most days.
B. Could be a fair amount, a few times per year.
C. Would rather not.
D. Terrain in my area reduces range by about 20%, I think. Weather isn't cold enough to play a role. AC use does impact range though.
E. Last quarter of the tank, or sometimes when the fuel light comes on.

The issue I have with low range EVs, is they really are quite limiting. They fill a niche, where they can definitely be used, but it's not like you're not making any sacrifices. I purchased a used Nissan Leaf in January, so I've only had it almost two months. The problem is my area is pretty hilly, which means you take a hit to your range of at least 10-20%. What that means is the Leaf I purchased has effectively only about 60 miles of range (1 bar gone on battery, plus terrain losses). Within two weeks of owning it, I encountered a situation where it didn't have enough range. I had to visit a store about 40 miles north, for a round trip of 80 miles, and knew I couldn't make it.

In fact, it's not too uncommon when I'll encounter a drive that is beyond that 60 mile range, or close enough to it to leave little buffer. I've had appointments at a hospital in the area that is 25 miles away. Theoretically I can make it there in the Leaf, but it's not leaving a whole lot of leeway, and it would make me a bit uneasy. By the same token, I used to have a 2001 Honda Insight which I could manage 60 mpg on the freeway, and yet I wouldn't attempt that drive with the low fuel light on, indicating only one gallon left in the tank. It's just too close to the wire, and as the batter degrades further that trip would become more and more iffy.

The bottom line for me is that an 80 mile range is really too short. Don't get me wrong, I really like my Leaf, and I don't regret having bought it, but while it will work fine for 95-99% of my drives, I will encounter situations where it won't cut it. You definitely have to make a few sacrifices to deal with such low range, and I can't realistically see vehicles with such short range ever catching on with the general public.

The Hyundai Ioniq with 130 mile range is clearly more practical than my Leaf. However, it's still short enough range that you really need another backup car. Franky, I don't want a backup gas car. I'd rather just be all electric. That's why I'm leaning back toward the Bolt after flirting with the Ioniq. I've already filled the low range EV niche, now I need a car that can actually go a significant distance without too much hassle (ie: not having to quick charge more than once or twice).
 
boltage said:
A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly).
B. Mileage in a day done occasionally.
C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household.
D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc..
E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car.

For me:

A. 20 to 30 miles.
B. 230 miles. I did that trip with four stops for DCQC. I'd prefer 2 or less.
C. Yes, but I don't like to take it. Wife's car. Far too "girly". She, on the other hand, like to take mine. Go figure.
D. +40% for normal driving, +20% when trip is planned and has charging alternatives
E. About 10 miles before returning the car.
 
A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly). 40 miles or 125 miles when I drive Uber; when I had the 13 Volt on lease for 12,000/year and returned it with mileage to spare. Now the Bolt EV lease is 15,000/year and I expect to drive it more often!

B. Mileage in a day done occasionally. 200+ when I push the envelope with the Bolt EV; looking forward to more Bolt EV trips to Northern California which used to be in my other car.

C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household. In Sept 13, Chevy offered me $10,000 for my Mercedes engineered hardtop, convertible Chrysler Sebring that I purchased the week they went bankrupt in 2009. I decided to keep it then for the cost of insurance and minimal maintenance. I keep it parked in front with a solar panel to trickle charge the battery and family members borrow it or I use it with the top down on certain days.

D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc. I live in Los Angeles; no idea!

E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car. Does it matter? I look for the nearest Costco and pull in!
 
A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly). Up until I got laid off, 100 or so a day
B. Mileage in a day done occasionally. Anywhere from 190 to 800
C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household.We currently own and use a hybrid SUV for hauling lots of people (5 to 7) and lots of stuff (often at the same time), sometimes for the 190 to 800 mile distance quoted above. We definitely need to keep said vehicle for the foreseeable future.
D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc.. As a percentage, probably 25%. In terms of actual miles, 25 to 50.
E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car. In the past, the cars we've owned warn us when there is only 2 or 3 gallons left. This usually means a useful range left of about 50 to 100 miles. I try to refuel within 25 miles or so when the refuel light has come on, especially in the lower-MPG vehicles. There have been times where that got pushed to less than a gallon left in the tank when we actually refueled.

The Bolt is clearly overkill for the range I need(ed) for commuting, but there are no other affordable EVs that have the 150 mile range I need to be comfortable using an EV to commute. I didn't want to have to rely on workplace charging in order to be able to get home, even though it eventually became available at my previous job. Thus why a Leaf or e-Golf or other EV with similar range was never in the cards.
 
A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly).
Daily work commute is 135-140 miles roundtrip depending on which route I take. Monthly I'm looking at around 2500 miles.

B. Mileage in a day done occasionally.
Occasionally would do errands after work, so maybe 20-30 miles more than the daily commute. Road trips (maybe a couple a year?) to go camping would push me over 200 miles in a day.

C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household.
Yes. Need two cars anyways.

D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc.
On the flat east coast so not too much in terms of hilly terrain. Maybe lose some to cold, but that should be going away in a couple weeks here.

E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car.
Driving a diesel Cruze now. Usually will run it down to about 70-100 miles to go before refilling. But I'm also getting 500-600+ miles on a tank before hitting that mark. If I'm driving very conservatively, I get around 750 miles out of a tank!
 
boltage said:
A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly).

33/day avg

B. Mileage in a day done occasionally.

100-200 randomly, 300-400 planned for family visits

C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household.

Wife has company car for now, but it's never a guaranteed thing.

D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc..

30% in summer, 50% in winter

E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline car?

When the light comes on, which is at least the same range as a Leaf, probably more.

So, it's not a question of what I really need, but what I really want. I've gotten by with 24 kWh for 5 years and I could do slightly better with a 125 mile range car, but I want as much range as I can possibly afford. Not all of my driving needs can be planned in advance. I like to wander and spontaneously explore. If there's an emergency, I need to go, now. I don't want to rent a car. I can't always rely on having a second ICE car at home. The Bolt is my first opportunity
for an over 200 mile EV. Thought one would come sooner, but hey, here it is. If Nissan doesn't pull its rabbit of the hat in the next six months, I'm gonna lease a Bolt. I can live with it for 3 years.
 
A lot of this is common sense, but it should be practically visualized and this discussion is necessary.

I just tell people to take a paper map, with their home at the center.
Now draw a radius circle of 0.4 of the EPA's estimated range figure (i.e., Ioniq would be 124 miles x 0.4 = 50 miles radius circle).
On that map, with the radius drawn, take a highlighter pen and dot all the places you like to go inside that circle.

Now put that map with the radius circle on it in your glove box and NEVER go outside that unless you got lucky and find a charger open & available, not broken, and not ICed (blocked), and you have the time to wait for it.

Which brings me to another point all owners of EVs know: You can't depend on having a charging station available in the real world, so you can't really plan for it on trips. Which makes the circle map your go-to handy-dandy glove-box frequently used guide.

Being organized like this, with a visual reference (circle map) means you may not ever need to call AAA for their mobile recharge service truck........ unless you're like my ex-girlfriend who actually ran out of gasoline once a month in a 400-mile range gas car!
 
charge said:
A lot of this is common sense, but it should be practically visualized and this discussion is necessary.

I just tell people to take a paper map, with their home at the center.
Now draw a radius circle of 0.4 of the EPA's estimated range figure (i.e., Ioniq would be 124 miles x 0.4 = 50 miles radius circle).
On that map, with the radius drawn, take a highlighter pen and dot all the places you like to go inside that circle.

Now put that map with the radius circle on it in your glove box and NEVER go outside that unless you got lucky and find a charger open & available, not broken, and not ICed (blocked), and you have the time to wait for it.

Which brings me to another point all owners of EVs know: You can't depend on having a charging station available in the real world, so you can't really plan for it on trips. Which makes the circle map your go-to handy-dandy glove-box frequently used guide.

Being organized like this, with a visual reference (circle map) means you may not ever need to call AAA for their mobile recharge service truck........ unless you're like my ex-girlfriend who actually ran out of gasoline once a month in a 400-mile range gas car!
I can think of many scenarios where you will run out of charge while remaining in your circle, and many where exceeding the circle would be no problem.

Anyone that consistently runs out of gas will likely run out of juice in an EV as well. A map in the glove box will not change that.

And thousands of EV owners plan and execute trips that rely on public charging.
 
charge said:
Now put that map with the radius circle on it in your glove box and NEVER go outside that unless you got lucky and find a charger open & available, not broken, and not ICed (blocked), and you have the time to wait for it.
Really!?!

I can't do this drive just for the fun of it???

The destination at this point was a double DCFC EVGo station. I "topped off" for 45 minutes at a Shorepower 14-50 with my AV TurboCord to get my Mileage Gauge up to 35 from 27 for the 36 mile drive to EVGo, but I was confident I would make it with the top-off, as it was primarily downhill.
 

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charge said:
Which brings me to another point all owners of EVs know: You can't depend on having a charging station available in the real world, so you can't really plan for it on trips.
That's why EV owners have a "Plan B" and a "Plan C" for charging. In the areas of the country where EVs are popular the number of fast chargers is getting to the point where if you can't use one of them then there are still one or two more within driving range.
 
MichaelLAX said:
I can't do this drive just for the fun of it???
I know the temptation to play is there. With the Rocky Mountains right next to me, playing with physics seems like a sport.


For those with Plan A, Plan B, etc.:
If you knew the probability of an available charging parking spot NOT being available, you can calculate the odds of making it home without calling AAA. Like this: For Plan A = 30% chance of NOT being there for you, backup Plan B = 40%, and Plan C = 60%, your chance of hitchhiking home become: 0.3 x 0.4 x 0.6 = 0.07, so for that very realistic scenario, you will be stranded about 1 out of every 15 trips like that.
 
charge said:
MichaelLAX said:
I can't do this drive just for the fun of it???
I know the temptation to play is there. With the Rocky Mountains right next to me, playing with physics seems like a sport.


For those with Plan A, Plan B, etc.:
If you knew the probability of an available charging parking spot NOT being available, you can calculate the odds of making it home without calling AAA. Like this: For Plan A = 30% chance of NOT being there for you, backup Plan B = 40%, and Plan C = 60%, your chance of hitchhiking home become: 0.3 x 0.4 x 0.6 = 0.07, so for that very realistic scenario, you will be stranded about 1 out of every 15 trips like that.

No. Every trip you have a 1 out of 15 chance of being stranded (if your math is correct). That is very, VERY different from you will be stranded about 1 out of every 15 trips. Example: flip a coin : it is 'heads'. Does that mean that the next flip must give you 'tails'? No. Does that mean that the next flip will likely give you 'tails'? No. Next flip you have a 1 in 2 chance of getting 'tails', just like every other time you flip the coin.
 
Concerning the 'circle' : It really, really, REALLY depends on where you live.

Myself, personally, have (informal) backup plan after (informal) backup plan (over 100) - because I live in an area with lots and LOTS of L2 EVSEs and DCFCs. I don't think I will ever have to call AAA, and I have often driven over 60% (heck, 80%) of the supposed range to get somewhere, then turned around come back in less than an hour (generally when I pick someone up at the airport). I am lucky to have over 10 choices for DCFCs along the route to SFO. If *I* ever get 'stuck', there are generally over 40 choices for 'personal emergency' EVSEs at homes, via PlugShare - just call and stop by and get 10 miles range to the next DCFC. I understand that this isn't true for most areas of the country, but I don't have to worry about a "40% circle" that I shouldn't drive outside of.

But even with all that, I would much rather have a BEV with 125 miles range than one with 82 miles range - it pretty much almost doubles the range of stress-free, 'don't have to charge while out' driving. (In daily driving, I have a slight 'worry' when I get under 25 miles range unless I'm pretty close to home. Well, I go into 'I will plan this trip' mode, vs. a 'just jump in the car and drive' mode.) So 125-25 (100 miles) compared to 82-25 (57 miles) of stress-free driving would be a big improvement. I would basically NEVER worry about it.
 
Back to the original series of questions posted by the OP:

A. Mileage in a day done frequently (daily to monthly). Usually only 10-15 miles per day.

B. Mileage in a day done occasionally.60-80 mile trips would be most common but also occasionally need to be able to drive 150-180 miles in a day.

C. Whether you have and intend to keep a longer range vehicle in your household. Other than the Bolt, currently have two other cars and a truck. Have no plans to sell or trade in any of them yet.

D. How much buffer range you estimate needing for cold weather conditions, terrain, etc.Based on my experience w/the Bolt so far, I need at least a 25% reserve. So, the 220-230 mid range estimate that I'm currently getting from the car is just about what I need for those occasional 150-180 mile trips.

E. How close to empty do you refuel when driving a gasoline or diesel car.I usually fill up when when 1/2 full and absolutely no lower than 1/4.
 
SparkE said:
No. Every trip you have a 1 out of 15 chance of being stranded (if your math is correct). That is very, VERY different from you will be stranded about 1 out of every 15 trips. Example: flip a coin : it is 'heads'. Does that mean that the next flip must give you 'tails'? No. Does that mean that the next flip will likely give you 'tails'? No. Next flip you have a 1 in 2 chance of getting 'tails', just like every other time you flip the coin.

As soon as you grasp the concept of "the house always wins" you'll see what I said is correct.
Being wordy about it doesn't help, Everybody knows what 1 in 15 odds are.
 
charge said:
A lot of this is common sense, but it should be practically visualized and this discussion is necessary.

I just tell people to take a paper map, with their home at the center.
Now draw a radius circle of 0.4 of the EPA's estimated range figure (i.e., Ioniq would be 124 miles x 0.4 = 50 miles radius circle).
On that map, with the radius drawn, take a highlighter pen and dot all the places you like to go inside that circle.

Now put that map with the radius circle on it in your glove box and NEVER go outside that unless you got lucky and find a charger open & available, not broken, and not ICed (blocked), and you have the time to wait for it.

Having been driving EVs for 6 year, I beg to differ, for multiple reasons.

1) Roads don't go the direction of your destination all the time. With NSEW only roads, would need to be a diamond rather than a circle.
2) EPA range is too long on a cold day with a winds and wet or snowy roads.
3) EPA range is too short for city driving on nice days. I've done a 100 miles on a charge with a 24kWh Leaf almost by accident once.
4) Planning charging isn't all that tough, most of the times.


charge said:
Which brings me to another point all owners of EVs know: You can't depend on having a charging station available in the real world, so you can't really plan for it on trips.

Backwards. You need to plan for charging, not only plan A but also plan B (and sometimes even plan C) I've had to wait for a charger twice total, I've never arrived at a broken charger or charging station, and I plan for the time needed to charge.

Example: Weekend trip away to favorite spot. Drive for over an hour, stop for dinner and a DCQC. Drop off wife, who goes in and orders for both of us while I drive the block to the DCQC, start the charge and walk back to join the wife for dinner. Yes, car will be on the DCQC longer than needed, note is on car saying ok to unplug if 70% SOC or more. Has not happened yet. If this DCQC is busy when I arrive (has been once), plug into the L2 (3 L2 stations are nearby), and have dessert and coffees after dinner, that's plan B. Needed about 6kW to safely make the second leg of the trip, a bit over an hour of charging. And will need to charge at destination, a free L2 near the center of town, with plan B being several L2's at a hotel, non-guests pay $5 at the desk, guests have priority. I check status of the DCQC before leaving, have changed plans once because DCQC was down. Yes, with a 30 kWh Leaf or a 60 kWh Bolt I wouldn't need to stop there. Still need destination charging, even with the Bolt.

One DCQC is reasonable. Two is not too bad. I've done four DCQCs (plus two hours of destination charging). That was a bit much.
 
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