Not ready for prime time!

redpoint5 said:

MichaelLAX said:

If you are going to make the nonsensical comparison of the cost of a commercial charger to the cost at home, I will make the equally nonsensical suggestion you carry a really, really long extension cord!

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Residential rates are higher than any other rates. The chargers should be on commercial rates, and the cost of installing the infrastructure should be amortized in a time period that allows electricity to at least approach the cost of gasoline. It costs way more to install a petrol station and truck fuel around than to attach some wires to the grid and step down the voltage and rectify it.

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All of which is irrelevant to my drive from my home in Los Angeles to Santa Cruz!

Unless you live some where about half way and are about to invite me to come use your home charger, I must use a commercial charger at some point to complete my trip, no matter how much you object to their prices!

My goal is to find the most convenience charger and then, if I still have that option, make it cheaper.

So if it is an EVGo charger (which it is when I take the US-99 route), I make it cheaper by purchasing their "On the Go" plan for $14.95 per month because I use EVGo for a minimum one hour per month and hence it is cheaper than any of their other plans and it eliminates the "per use" fee!

When you drive 230+ miles, feel free to NOT use commercial chargers!

TedMichon said:

Follow-up: We made it! Barely.

When we arrived in Primm with a tiny margin of 13 indicated miles charge left to reach LV after our EVgo problems in Victorville persuaded us to not charge any further, we discovered that the free Chargepoint Level 2 charger iwas not working. The operator did assume some responsibility when we asked to use a 120 V outlet, but every location we tried was dead and their "engineer" did not know how to switch them on. So we hobbled across the freeway to the unoccupied Texaco station and connected to a 120 outlet for three plus hours to get the indicated range up to forty. We then set our sights on a place listed as Level 2 just on the outskirts of LV. Once again, the information was wrong, but this time in a good way: the charger at Terrible Herbst turned out to be a working, available, EVGo DC Fast Charge and we quickly put 75 miles on the Bolt using 101 amps at 338 volts while my wife finished her book and I had an ice cream sandwich and thanked the employees on duty.
We rolled into the Excalibur 5 hours later than planned stressed but alive. The free Level 2 chargers advertised but never confirmed after several phone calls proved to be real AND free AND working and we added 50 kWH overnight.

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It sounds like you've made quite the journey! I wanted to offer our 24/7 driver support number should you find yourself in a similar situation again in the future: 1-888-758-4389. We may be able to provide support to the station representative, too to help you get things charging!

Chargepoint Support: Please send a rep out to Cool Hand Luke's in Paso Robles, CA.

This important DCFC at the intersection of Hiway-46 and US-101 on the way from Southern California to Northern California and back is running much lower output than it should. I called this information in to Support.

They said it was outputting 21KWh but my Bolt EV was reporting inputting only 14 KWh and it took me an extra hour to obtain an 80% charge (2.5 hours from the usual 1.5 hours) and others report this problem recently on PlugShare as well.

On the way home to Los Angeles tomorrow, I am going to drive another 30 miles to the south and use an EVGo charger at the Marigold Center in San Luis Obispo, to avoid this problem again.

I much prefer to use ChargePoint!

Thank you!

redpoint5 said:

No amount of charging infrastructure will make up for the deficiency that EVs have in covering long distances in short periods of time. Drive your other non-EV car for those trips, trade vehicles with a neighbor or family member, rent another car, fly, take the train... there are many other excellent tools for the job. So many in fact, that we really shouldn't hear these complaint stories unless people are a glutton for punishment and want to brag.

MichaelLAX said:

As I've pointed out mathematically elsewhere on this Forum, if you use EVGo just 60 minutes every month, their $14.95 monthly On-the-Go plan, which eliminates the "per use" fee, is cheaper than the other plans!

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Mathematically it's insane what they charge, regardless of the plan. It costs me 1/5 the price per mile to charge at home compared to my 30 MPG Acura TSX. Then again, I don't feel sorry for those who use the wrong tool for the job.

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I'm guessing Michael would rather pay the 15 bucks to be able to make an intermediate-distance trip with his EV than paying even more to rent a car, fly, or take the train. Sometimes the right "tool" for the job may indeed be a public L3 charger, even if it does cost more than charging at home.

Part of the bummer here is that there are a lot of "promised" chargers out there, but the build out takes so dang long, owners may be halfway through their leases (or maybe even completely through) before they ever benefit them. It doesn't help that all of the charge vendors pursued L2 when really we should have gone DC fast from the get-go. L2 is basically viable at home, work and hotels...even malls and movie theaters where folks might stay a little longer aren't much of a use-case for L2. The end results is you have this mish-mash of L2s, CCS and ChaDemo out there and much of it, as the OP has found, just isn't reliable.

I fear a lot of the VW money will end up being sunk in more near worthless L2 chargers inside of cities instead of building out DC on travel corridors...sigh, still a long way to go.

oilerlord said:

Sometimes the right "tool" for the job may indeed be a public L3 charger, even if it does cost more than charging at home.

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I don't "get" how anyone can compare the cost of charging on the road to the cost of charging at home and yet here is another post from another well received member of this forum doing yet that!

For the record, when I leased a Chevy Volt from 2013 to 2016, I drove to Northern California in my Chrysler Sebring Hardtop Convertible, since the Volt lease only provided 1,000 miles per month.

Now that my Bolt EV lease provides 15,000 miles per year, I drive it EVERYWHERE in California and surrounding states, when I start to make those drives, too (and garage the Chrysler)!

The cost of charging at home for me is negligible since I get to write it off against the lease income on my 4-plex. and thank you EVGo which in their wisdom continues to ONLY charge me the 14.95 monthly fee and never charges me the actual energy usage fees!

MichaelLAX said:

I don't "get" how anyone can compare the cost of charging on the road to the cost of charging at home and yet here is another post from another well received member of this forum doing yet that!

The cost of charging at home for me is negligible since I get to write it off against the lease income on my 4-plex. and thank you EVGo which in their wisdom continues to ONLY charge me the 14.95 monthly fee and never charges me the actual energy usage fees!

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Umm...read my post again. I was agreeing with you. While the cost can be compared, it's an apples-oranges comparison - especially when you're in the middle of a trip in need of a charge.

OK! I'll accept "yes" as an answer and apologize for misreading the post!

oiler lord said:

..., it's an apples-oranges comparison - especially when you're in the middle of a trip in need of a charge.

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Especially since EVGo doesn't charge me for the per use electricity!!!

MichaelLAX said:

I don't "get" how anyone can compare the cost of charging on the road to the cost of charging at home and yet here is another post from another well received member of this forum doing yet that!

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Do you "get" that some people are proponents of EVs, not because they believe EVs will save the world from the evil of CO2, but instead because they see them as an efficient and economical tool for certain transportation jobs?

Oilerlord has a good point that occasional stops at a DCFC can make sense for medium distance trips, especially when the alternative is renting a car or flying.

I understand that DCFC costs more than L2 charging at home, but it doesn't excuse it from being 5x the cost. The OP said the price is $10 per half hour at an EVGo charger, and people here have reported 50 kW charge rate under ideal circumstances. That works out to $0.40/kWh.

As others have mentioned, there are subscription plans offered by EVGo. From the EVgo website, the price is $0.20/min. That works out to $0.23/kWh, ignoring the monthly fee and 1 year contract.

FOR FREQUENT FAST CHARGING
Monthly fee $19.95
DC fast 20¢ / min.*
Level 2 $1.50 / hr.*
Contract 12 months
Setup fee None
Early termination $29

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I pay $0.08/kWh, ignoring the ~$350 I spent for the EVSE and NEMA 14-50r.

Besides all this, you miss my real argument, which isn't that DCFC pricing should be comparable to L2 home charging, but that it should be comparable to gasoline. The fact that electricity is more expensive than gasoline is a slap in the face when you consider the other disadvantages of DCFC (takes longer to "fill up", uncertainty of operational status, more frequent need to "refuel", sparse placement of charging stations...).

Sure, it's fun to read how enthusiasts go long distances in an EV, but I would caution the average consumer from feeling like they will be happy downloading apps, meticulously planning recharges, paying charging subscription fees, and praying that chargers are both working and available when they plan to go beyond the single charge range.

For widespread EV adoption to become a reality, consumers need realistic expectations. If their expectations are not met, it will take a long time to win them over to the EV side again.

You are indicting a whole industry based upon the anecdotal pricing of the most expensive company.

You should do some real world research, if you care, and see what others charge for their DCFC's

In the meantime GM does not market the Bolt EV as a long distance inter-city vehicle.

We early adopters are stretching the envelope!

Note: I used to pay $40 to drive to Santa Cruz from home in my Chrysler. Now it costs me less than $20 in my Bolt EV

MichaelLAX said:

You are indicting a whole industry based upon the anecdotal pricing of the most expensive company.

You should do some real world research, if you care, and see what others charge for their DCFC's

In the meantime GM does not market the Bolt EV as a long distance inter-city vehicle.

We early adopters are stretching the envelope!

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Unfortunately EVGo is the most available DCFC option out there right now, so using their pricing, especially in context with the OP, is appropriate. The cheapest options I see on Plugshare show $0.50/kWh. That still works out to about $0.13/mile compared to the $0.10/mile I pay for gasoline in my 30 MPG Acura (and 6x the rate I pay at home).

If pointing out that the DCFC industry isn't reliable enough, fast enough, plentiful enough, or cheap enough is an indictment, then so be it.

I haven't seen the Bolt marketing at all, but that aside, the typical consumer should not think that traveling beyond the range of a fully charged Bolt is as trivial as doing so in a conventional vehicle. This thread title is "Not ready for prime time!". Obviously someone had the impression that the Bolt is designed to have the same utility as a conventional vehicle.

My assertion is that the Bolt is "ready for prime time", and excels at accomplishing trips within it's range.

Ok, then!

redpoint5 said:

This thread title is "Not ready for prime time!". Obviously someone had the impression that the Bolt is designed to have the same utility as a conventional vehicle.

My assertion is that the Bolt is "ready for prime time", and excels at accomplishing trips within it's range.

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If you size the parameters to fit the definition, you can make "prime time" fit any situation. For example, a 2011 Leaf with a severely degraded battery is ready for prime time too, and excels at accomplishing trips within its 30 mile range.

I read the OP's post as someone that was curious to see how his Bolt would handle a trip from LA to Vegas. I think the spirit of his post is such that prime time means any reliable car should be able to make that trip without cause for concern. Really, wouldn't Joe Public assume their car could make that trip? We've been able to make trips like that for decades, and not give it a second thought - until now.

In the OP's experience, his Bolt couldn't do that, and thus wasn't ready for prime time.

oilerlord said:

In the OP's experience, his Bolt couldn't do that (LA to Vegas), and thus wasn't ready for prime time.

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Since many people have reported making that trip easily, there is a major flaw in the OP's methodology of how he expects to drive a Bolt EV from LA to Vegas!

If, like sgt1372, he insists on driving his Bolt EV like his BMW at 75+ MPH on I-15, he cannot expect to easily make that trip!

MichaelLAX said:

Since many people have reported making that trip easily, there is a major flaw in the OP's methodology of how he expects to drive a Bolt EV from LA to Vegas!

If, like sgt1372, he insists on driving his Bolt EV like his BMW at 75+ MPH on I-15, he cannot expect to easily make that trip!

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You go with that Michael.

Its so easy to make a 270 mile trip with a 238 EPA mile car...just be a road hazard at 45 mph while everyone else honks and flips you the bird at 75-80 mph. Those idiots driving the speed limit on the I-15 are so stupid.

oilerlord said:

MichaelLAX said:

Since many people have reported making that trip easily, there is a major flaw in the OP's methodology of how he expects to drive a Bolt EV from LA to Vegas!

If, like sgt1372, he insists on driving his Bolt EV like his BMW at 75+ MPH on I-15, he cannot expect to easily make that trip!

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You go with that Michael.

Its so easy to make a 270 mile trip with a 238 EPA mile car...just be a road hazard at 45 mph while everyone else honks and flips you the bird at 75-80 mph. Those idiots driving the speed limit on the I-15 are so stupid.

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Wow:

Not reading the thread

Incorrect factual assertions

Baseless claims; and

Uncalled for insults (as if they are ever called for on this forum), but join the chorus!!

It is about 185 miles from the DCFC in Victorville to Las Vegas!

MichaelLAX said:

Wow:

Not reading the thread

Incorrect factual assertions

Baseless claims; and

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Before accusing others of not reading the thread, making baseless claims, and incorrect factual assertions, perhaps you should read the thread.

The OP wrote:

"There aren't many charging locations between Irvine and Las Vegas and we'd never used one before so we hedged our bets by immediately stopping in Victorville after less than 50 miles to top off. I had read that there was an EVGo there with a DC Fast Charge and fixed price of $9.95. We found the station and eventually saw that it would take 14 minutes. We went into the mall for lunch and monitored progress via the MyChevrolet app. Charging stopped at 87%, with not enough miles to get us to Vegas. I called EVgo and was told the$9.95 flat rate was for only 30 minutes!
That works out to $50 for a full charge (it took us from 67% to 87%).
We decided to press on to Primm, NV, with its free level 2 stations. "

He did stop in Victorville, he ended up wasting time, only to have to stop to charge the car again. Just a guess, but I'm thinking he would have rather been in Vegas having a good time instead of wasting it at a charging station or being forced to drive way below the speed limit to get there.

The point is, it isn't "easy". You assume the ONE available DCFC station in Victorville is operational, or isn't in use by someone else. For me, it isn't worth my time, or the risk of putting myself or my family in a bad situation. For you however, obviously it is. To each their own.

oilerlord said:

MichaelLAX said:

Wow:

Not reading the thread

Incorrect factual assertions

Baseless claims; and

Click to expand...

Before accusing others of not reading the thread, making baseless claims, and incorrect factual assertions, perhaps you should read the thread.

The OP wrote:

"There aren't many charging locations between Irvine and Las Vegas and we'd never used one before so we hedged our bets by immediately stopping in Victorville after less than 50 miles to top off. I had read that there was an EVGo there with a DC Fast Charge and fixed price of $9.95. We found the station and eventually saw that it would take 14 minutes. We went into the mall for lunch and monitored progress via the MyChevrolet app. Charging stopped at 87%, with not enough miles to get us to Vegas. I called EVgo and was told the$9.95 flat rate was for only 30 minutes!
That works out to $50 for a full charge (it took us from 67% to 87%).
We decided to press on to Primm, NV, with its free level 2 stations. "

He did stop in Victorville, he ended up wasting time, only to have to stop to charge the car again. Just a guess, but I'm thinking he would have rather been in Vegas having a good time instead of wasting it at a charging station or being forced to drive way below the speed limit to get there.

The point is, it isn't "easy". You assume the ONE available DCFC station in Victorville is operational, or isn't in use by someone else. For me, it isn't worth my time, or the risk of putting myself or my family in a bad situation. For you however, obviously it is. To each their own.

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Let's review the REAL facts:

I criticized the OP for driving his Bolt EV too fast (75+ MPH) in a situation that would require a more reasonable "speed limit" approach to get him to his destination with only the Victorville charge. Too many people think that EV's should drive like Ferrari's or even Tesla's, which they can, but not for 220+ miles on a single charge!

You came back at me with your "over the top" sarcasm:

oilerlord said:

You go with that Michael.

Its so easy to make a 270 mile trip with a 238 EPA mile car...just be a road hazard at 45 mph while everyone else honks and flips you the bird at 75-80 mph. Those idiots driving the speed limit on the I-15 are so stupid.

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Your FIRST error was describing his trip as 270 miles; but had you read the OP BEFORE your initial sarcastic reply, you would have realized that the OP DID stop in Victorville, which is only 185 miles from Las Vegas!

Your SUCCEEDING error was to make your "off the wall" comments about driving "45 mph while everyone else honks and flips you the bird at 75-80 mph. Those idiots driving the speed limit on the I-15 are so stupid." No one, certainly not I, claimed that the OP had to drive 45 MPH! Who's stupid now?!?

The remaining criticism by the OP over the Victorville charge is with EVGo with their 30 minute timer cut-off at almost every one of their stations! He could have easily initiated another charge, but he chose to save $5 and drive on to Primm.

The fact of the matter is that an 87% charge on a Bolt EV (200 miles) will EASILY get him to Las Vegas in the right lane in "L" mode with cruise control set to the flow of traffic; usually 55-60MPH, given the truck traffic in that lane and their state mandated 55 MPH speed limit. Again, it was the OP's desire to drive 75+ MPH, far in excess of the speed limit in an EV that is the cause of the problem.

Hypotheticals about the availability of the Victorville charger are just red herrings you brought up on this round!

The OP had obtained a 87% charge on his Victorville DCFC! If the OP is worried about its availability for future drives, that is his right, but not the issue I was discussing in my post!

The OP made newbie errors and by our discussions in this thread, the next Bolt EV driver from LA to Las Vegas need not make the same errors, oilerlord's sarcasm, notwithstanding!

All of your comments are reasonable given the situation the OP was in (he could have made better decisions), but it takes quite a bit of time and effort to obtain the knowledge you have, plus wait for all of the charging and slower driving.

EVs still aren't "ready for prime time" when it comes to long distance trips. They still aren't as fast, cheap, reliable, and plentiful as gas stations.

I'd probably drive an EV long distance once just for the experience, but I'm not going to waste my time and money on a regular basis when there are so many ICE options available to me.

MichaelLAX said:

Let's review the REAL facts:

Your FIRST error was describing his trip as 270 miles; but had you read the OP BEFORE your initial sarcastic reply, you would have realized that the OP DID stop in Victorville, which is only 185 miles from Las Vegas!

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"Real" fact: The trip from LA to Vegas is 270.2 miles

MichaelLAX said:

Your SUCCEEDING error was to make your "off the wall" comments about driving "45 mph while everyone else honks and flips you the bird at 75-80 mph. Those idiots driving the speed limit on the I-15 are so stupid." No one, certainly not I, claimed that the OP had to drive 45 MPH! Who's stupid now?!?

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Real fact: 45 mph or 55 mph...doesn't make a difference. Drive 55 while everyone else is going 75-80 mph....other drivers will honk and flip you the bird. The bigger question is, which driver is being stupid? I think if we have to ask the question, we already know the answer.

MichaelLAX said:

The remaining criticism by the OP over the Victorville charge is with EVGo with their 30 minute timer cut-off at almost every one of their stations! He could have easily initiated another charge, but he chose to save $5 and drive on to Primm.

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Real fact: Add yet another 30 minutes on the charger.

MichaelLAX said:

The fact of the matter is that an 87% charge on a Bolt EV (200 miles) will EASILY get him to Las Vegas in the right lane in "L" mode with cruise control set to the flow of traffic; usually 55-60MPH, given the truck traffic in that lane and their state mandated 55 MPH speed limit. Again, it was the OP's desire to drive 75+ MPH, far in excess of the speed limit in an EV that is the cause of the problem.

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Real fact: The state mandated 55 MPH speed limit applies to semi trucks, not cars. On an Interstate, the "flow" of traffic is usually 75-80 MPH, not 55-60. Last time I checked, I didn't notice any EV speed limit signs.

MichaelLAX said:

Hypotheticals about the availability of the Victorville charger are just red herrings you brought up on this round!

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Real fact: Public chargers are sometimes occupied by other EV's. DCFC stations can and do go offline. Some charge faster than others adding more time to the overall drive. This is reality, not a hypothetical.

MichaelLAX said:

The OP made newbie errors and by our discussions in this thread, the next Bolt EV driver from LA to Las Vegas need not make the same errors, oilerlord's sarcasm, notwithstanding!

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The OP simply wanted to drive to Vegas, at the speed limit (like most everyone else does) in order arrive in a reasonable amount of time. I added sarcasm to help you consider using common sense. Neither were successful.