bluebolt
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:15 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:46 am

I believe that I can resolve the discussion of recent postings regarding whether CC (capitalized cost) matters more than RV (residual value).

The answer is that everyone is right. This is because the only way to compare two leases is by calculating the TCO (total cost of ownership) across the lifetime of both leases, not by looking at the CC or RV in isolation.

Let's compare imaginary Lease A against imaginary Lease B.

LeftieBiker is correct: if Lease A has a lower CC than Lease B, then Lease A can also have a lower RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

DucRider is also correct: if Lease A has a higher CC than Lease B, then lease A can also have a higher RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

If you keep everything else equal, then lowering the CC lowers the TCO.

If you keep everything else equal, then raising the RV lowers the TCO.

But the leasing companies do not keep everything equal. And so if you modify both the CC and RV at the same time, then all bets are off, and your TCO's can go in any direction.

This lack of predictability is true not just for CC and RV, but for all the parameters of a lease. The MSRP, rebates, capitalized cost reduction, doc fee, license fee, disposition fee, acquisition fee, and all the other fees and charges, these are all just mathematical fictions created by the leasing company. If you focus on reducing just one of them, then the leasing company can simply raise another one of them, and the total cost of the lease hasn't changed at all -- or has even increased -- even though it looks like it's gone down.

In other words, although everyone is right in describing the importance of monthly payments or rebates or capitalized cost reduction or residual value, none of these parameters matters in isolation, because it can be easily cancelled out or unbalanced by another parameter.

The only way to tell whether a lease is a good deal -- equivalently, the only way to compare one lease with another lease, apples-to-apples -- is to calculate the total cost of ownership, including all fees.

Since everyone was correct in their earlier postings, I suggest now returning back to the original goal of sharing real-world lease information.

Also, I hope that posters on this group will do their best to provide sufficient information for calculating TCO (total cost of ownership). My own earlier post steps through a way to calculate TCO. This kind of effort is important because only with a TCO is it possible to accurately compare one lease with another.

Edited: per DucRider's input.
Last edited by bluebolt on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:25 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:04 am

LeftieBiker wrote:The inflated residual is generally agreed to be more than the car is actually worth, so it isn't a "savings" in any rational sense, because GMAC has also pocketed $5k in return for doing it.


You continue to assert that GM is "pocketing" $5k of the tax credit. DucRider, I, and others have given you example numbers which refute this claim. If we are missing something, let's start here.

We have defended our case with reason and numbers. Now it is time for you to do the same. Please give us an example lease scenario in which GM "pockets" the $5k.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:19 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:56 pm

That's pretty easy. For simplicity, I'll use whole numbers, in thousands, any ignore everything but MSRP, CCR, RV, and my cost.

Scenario 1

MSRP. 40
CCR. 7.5
RV. 20
Lease. 12.5

If I return car at lease end, I've paid 12.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & whatever they get at auction

If I buy out at end I've paid 32.5 and GM gets 40

Scenario 2

MSRP. 40
CCR. 2.5
RV. 25
Lease. 12.5

If I return, I've paid 12.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & whatever they can get at auction, exactly the same as in #1

If I buy out though, I've paid 37.5 and GM gets 12.5 & 7.5 & 25 , so 5 more, but only because I gave it to them.

Are they hoping I won't notice? Or that a Bolt will retain value somehow?
Who knows?
Leaf SL 2012-2014
Leaf SV 2014-present
6.72 kW Solar

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 724
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:25 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:42 pm

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:That's pretty easy. For simplicity, I'll use whole numbers, in thousands, any ignore everything but MSRP, CCR, RV, and my cost.


Thanks, but that's not what I was asking for. Your numbers support my stance, not Leftie's. I want to see the scenario in which GM pockets $5k in a lease/return scenario. Because his claim is that if you buy out the lease, they get the $5k twice.

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Are they hoping I won't notice? Or that a Bolt will retain value somehow?
Who knows?


I would guy a little of both, and maybe a third option as well.

There may be some who simply buy out the lease without question. In that case, GM does get to keep $5k of the tax credit.

Looking at the Volt (with which GM did the same thing for leases), it may have contributed to less depreciation on used cars. Or maybe not, I don't claim to know.

The third thing that comes to mind is this gets people into a pattern of leasing. GM would rather you lease a brand new car in 3 years than simply buy out the one you've been renting. It seems that many people in the EV market have fallen into this pattern. Always hopeful that the latest-and-greatest will be much better 3 years down the road (and typically it is, right now).
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:19 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:43 pm

Well, I wasn't trying to support Leftie. I have no idea where he gets that two time penalty thing. I just wanted to clearly show that the only way GM gets $5k extra is if you give it to them at buyout, and not if you return it. So, yes, you're correct.

The only way that buyout becomes worth it if is something prevents ICEVs from running, like new laws or a catastrophic event in the fuel supply. If even 2011 Leafs become $25,000 used cars, that extra $5k might make sense.
Leaf SL 2012-2014
Leaf SV 2014-present
6.72 kW Solar

DucRider
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:10 pm

bluebolt wrote:Let's compare imaginary Lease A against imaginary Lease B.

LeftieBiker is correct: if Lease A has a lower CCR than Lease B, then Lease A can also have a lower RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

DucRider is also correct: if Lease A has a higher CCR than Lease B, then lease A can also have a higher RV, so that the total cost of ownership is the same for both leases.

You have that backwards in both those scenarios.
A lower CCR requires a higher RV for the depreciation to remain the same.
Conversely, a higher CCR dictates a lower RV.

40K Sell Price
7,500 CCR
32.5K capitalized cost
20K residual
12.5K in depreciation

Lower the CCR by 5K and the RV must go up by that same amount in order for the depreciation to remain the same
40K Sell Price
2,500 CCR
37.5K capitalized cost
25K residual
12.5K in depreciation
Gary

2014 Honda Fit EV - lease ends Jan 2019

oftheseven
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt - Prepay mileage?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:44 pm

Anyone try to pre-pay for mileage on a lease for less than the .25 cent/mi?
I was told you can't pre-pay mileage on GM leases by one person and the folks at GM financial didn't provide a clear answer.

If i get a 12K mile lease and pre-pay for a couple thousand miles at .20 it would be cheaper than going to a 15K mile lease.

I'm aware of putting money upfront but willing to take the risk if i can lower my overall cost.

bluebolt
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:15 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:52 am

You have that backwards in both those scenarios.
You're right. I edited the post to change "capitalized cost reduction" to "capitalized cost".

EastWestBrothers
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:01 am

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:09 am

Recent deal during Labor Day weekend

Bolt Premier
Kinetic Blue
DC Fast Charge
Infotainment
Driver Confidence II

MSRP $43,905
36 months/10k miles per year
Drive-off $320 (first month's payment)
$320.90 per month, taxes included for 35 payments

Dealer is also throwing in some accessories due to some mistakes made on their end prepping the car for delivery.

Coming from a 2014 Focus Electric so looking forward to having more than 3x the range.

darekd
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: How Much I Paid for My Bolt

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:26 pm

EastWestBrothers wrote:Recent deal during Labor Day weekend

Bolt Premier
Kinetic Blue
DC Fast Charge
Infotainment
Driver Confidence II

MSRP $43,905
36 months/10k miles per year
Drive-off $320 (first month's payment)
$320.90 per month, taxes included for 35 payments

Dealer is also throwing in some accessories due to some mistakes made on their end prepping the car for delivery.

Coming from a 2014 Focus Electric so looking forward to having more than 3x the range.


Where did you get this deal?

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