AyeJay
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:57 pm

~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:34 pm

Image


Hi All,

A Vehicle to Home power system is on the horizon & it looks like the time has come.

Nissan and other makers are beginning to view electric cars not just as transportation, but as mobile energy-storage units that can provide emergency power and take stress off electrical grids.

https://youtu.be/zLs7YOjC2mE

-- With the big California utility companies efforts to squash rooftop Solar, de-centralized power production via unfair net metering & now through so-called 'time of use' rate structures this setup is going to be more attractive than ever.

It's like when Apple invented/took the personal computer to the public ..

Will Chevrolet be adding this capability to it's EV's any time soon?

(Please!)
- 2017 Bolt EV LT ~ {2015 KIA Soul EV previously}
- 1982 VW Rabbit (Caddy) TD Pickup

michael
Posts: 638
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Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:36 pm

This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.

If you want a battery load leveling system, get one intended for that purpose. Or ideally someone will offer systems that make use of degraded batteries from cars.

But I would not use my car's battery for load leveling. For emergency use, sure, but not for leveling.
2013 Ford Focus Electric 51000 miles in 34 months, returned
2014 Volt, returned
2014 Volt, returned,

2017 Volt
2017 Volt
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327

LeftieBiker
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 am

Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:40 pm

People using the L2H system have noted accelerated battery degradation, and I believe I know why. The Leaf pack is passively air-cooled. The system does nothing to cool the pack when the car is parked, but does provide significant cooling while driving, if the ambient air is cooler than the pack. The above scenario provides zero cooling for the battery.

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oilerlord
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Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:29 pm

I think EVERYTHING else would need to change before "this" happens. I get the dog-head tilts just trying to explain what a kWh is.
2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric Drive
2012 VW Jetta Sportwagen (not-so-clean-diesel) TDI
2008 BMW X3 3.0 "Beatrice"
2004 BMW 330Xi Sedan
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geobrian
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Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:35 am

This is a great idea, just not very practical with today's technology. As battery chemistries evolve and degradation becomes less of an issue, this idea will become more mainstream. It's an interesting video to think about what our energy consumption and storage might look like 40 years down the road.

AyeJay
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:14 pm

michael wrote:This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.


Thank you for the response michael ..

Presumably you would be getting paid by your local utility company for any power your car shares with the grid.
If you have solar on your home's rooftop the 60kW storage your car provides that system would mean a profit would be realized and probably offset the cost any battery replacement.

Our cars generally sit unused most of their lives. Why not give them an active 'home power/clean grid' function when we are not using them for transportation?

AJ
- 2017 Bolt EV LT ~ {2015 KIA Soul EV previously}
- 1982 VW Rabbit (Caddy) TD Pickup

michael
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:13 pm

Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:18 pm

AyeJay wrote:
michael wrote:This is a bad idea. Your battery has a finite life. I wouldn't waste it relieving the power company of peak load.


Thank you for the response michael ..

Presumably you would be getting paid by your local utility company for any power your car shares with the grid.
If you have solar on your home's rooftop the 60kW storage your car provides that system would mean a profit would be realized and probably offset the cost any battery replacement.

Our cars generally sit unused most of their lives. Why not give them an active 'home power/clean grid' function when we are not using them for transportation?

AJ



Because it wears the battery out. If it were without cost to the life of your car, sure why not. But the Bolt battery, for example, carries an 80,000 mile warranty. This represents approximately 80,000/200 = 400 equivalent full charge/discharge cycles.

If one uses, for example, 1000 kWh per month in your house, this represents approximately 1000/60 = 16 full charge/discharge cycles, approximately 200 cycles per year.

So one could be using up the battery life over two years by using it for grid storage. These numbers are very rough estimates, of course, but the point is that the grid leveling usage will be wearing out the battery very possibly faster than the driving function does.

If you want battery load leveling, it will be much better to get a separate unit dedicated to the purpose and designed for that purpose.

If you want to help the utilities manage load and make a profit, simply install solar and push energy back into the grid during the peak afternoon hours. Wearing out your car battery isn't necessary.
2013 Ford Focus Electric 51000 miles in 34 months, returned
2014 Volt, returned
2014 Volt, returned,

2017 Volt
2017 Volt
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327

gpsman
Posts: 362
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Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:38 pm

Vehicle to Grid ( or V2G ) has been expermented with for over 10 years. I participated in a small scale version in 2007. Well, not participated with my car (I didn’t have a BEV at the time) but I watched others do it.

Yes. It is like net metering. You get credited with what you give, and likely even a discount for what you use (like interest on money in the bank, they pay you “extra” for borrowing your battery power, since it may save them from firing up another boiler).

Chargeit
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Location: Suburban Maryland

Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:48 am

This wouldn't work for us. During the day our EVs are out and about at work, etc, using up stored electricity. We recharge from the grid when we get home at night. While we're gone, our solar panels are pumping juice onto the grid to electrify our neighbors. There's no way to get the solar panel output into our cars unless we stayed home. The only better solution to our situation would be to add a stationary battery and go off-grid, and we don't have quite enough solar panels to do that... yet.
2) 2015 Spark EVs and 1) 2017 Bolt EV!

Marktm
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: ~~ This could change EVERYTHING! .. ~~

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:28 pm

Has anyone actually installed the Nissan V2G/V2H equipment in the US? For several years, it's been discussed, but seems still only been available in Japan (or Europe)? There is a company making a small V2H CHAdeMO unit - just not very seamless!

Some random thoughts/considerations;
- Installed, stationary battery costs (Lithium tech), based on $$/kWh, are similar to the total cost of a new Bolt
- With smart grid and smart charging - it is possible that battery degradation will not be an issue. This would of course be highly use dependent and at this time only be true for those using a small % of their EV battery and/or those at home during much of the day. However, with bi-directional energy capability at work locations, this will change dramatically (IMO).
- As 10's-100's millions of EVs (including commercial) become grid connected, with large kWh batteries, the resultant potential energy storage can provide the stabilization capabilities needed to incorporate majority renewables as energy sources - (2030?).
- Stationary, inductive charging (or similar convenient methodology) might be a necessity?
- Is the production of this massive (how do you describe 100 billion pounds?) of batteries any more ecological than burning billions of barrels of fuels - is it possible?
- Not surprising the big guys are getting into batteries.

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