BMW and VW finish installing EV chargers along US coastlines
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The unfortunate thing is that many (if not most) are 24 kW versions with a single plug.
That equates to about an hour of charging to get 80-90 miles of range. Could make for a very long day. Drive for a bit more than an hour, stop for a bit more than an hour (allowing time to exit the freeway, find the station - hopefully available - and initiate the charging session, return to the freeway, etc)
That equates to about an hour of charging to get 80-90 miles of range. Could make for a very long day. Drive for a bit more than an hour, stop for a bit more than an hour (allowing time to exit the freeway, find the station - hopefully available - and initiate the charging session, return to the freeway, etc)
oilerlord
Well-known member
It makes sense to install L3 charging at existing gas stations. I'd like to see a public / private partnership develop between local/state/federal governments and Big Oil. Exxon, BP, Chevron, etc all run media campaigns as to how environmentally sensitive and caring they are. I"d like to see them take some real action toward climate change instead of the sunshine and rainbows media campaigns.
Perhaps one day we'll see a $ per kWh price listed alongside $ per gallon at gas stations. To DucRider's point, 24 kW "fast" charging doesn't cut it. I have better things to do than wait an hour for my car to charge for a piddly 80 miles. Realistically, we need to see 200+ kW fast charging as the norm.
Perhaps one day we'll see a $ per kWh price listed alongside $ per gallon at gas stations. To DucRider's point, 24 kW "fast" charging doesn't cut it. I have better things to do than wait an hour for my car to charge for a piddly 80 miles. Realistically, we need to see 200+ kW fast charging as the norm.
SparkE
Well-known member
oilerlord said:
I don't think that it makes much sense to install L3 charging at gas stations. It makes sense to install them at places where there is something to do for 30-45 minutes. In my mind, the best place for super-fast (90+ kW) charging is near major freeway access. Having something to 'do' could be a coffee/snack shop, a sandwich stand, a Denny's-type 'eat in 40 minutes' restaurant (but hopefully with better food), or a pleasant greenspace (say, a 5-acre park with grass, trees, loo, playground for the kiddies).
I've actually 'come around' on the slower DCFCs - I think they make GREAT sense at places you go anyway for (say) 15-30 minutes. NOT when on a longish trip, but at the grocery store, hair salon, lunch place, etc. I've found 2 places near me that have 20-ish kW DCFCs (a Walgreens and a largish 'strip mall' with a *fantastic* grocery store). When I am in the general area and under 50% charge and need something, THOSE are the places I stop. I get a quick 'extra charge' and get my shopping done. They turn out to be super convenient (on occasion) - so much so that I (a) somewhat plan my outings to stop by to those stores when I 'need' something (like batteries, for the Walgreens) or (b) stop there and sometimes buy something I hadn't planned when I am under 25% SoC. (My 'range anxiety' is mostly making sure I have enough charge so that I won't have 'range anxiety'.
Finally, I don't think that anything over 50 kW DCFC needs to be 'the norm' (but maybe 'the norm' means different things to me than to you). MOST people charge their vehicles at home, overnight, or at work during work hours (if available) - or both. MOST driving by most people will be done well within a 'single charge' range most of the time, and super-fast charging won't be needed: either NO public charging is needed, or 'fast' (45 kW) charging would be more than sufficient for the occasional 'range extension' charge. I think that 130 kW charging is needed for inter-city travelling, so it needs to be available along major transit routes, near the interstates (freeways/motorways/tollroads/...).
So who is going to need super-fast charging?
- almost always NOT the person who charges at 6.6 kW overnight in the garage - 10 hours of charge is 60kWh overnight.
- the person on a trip. So 130-kW charging is needed near the major highway makes sense
- sometimes, the person commuting 90+ miles/day who can't charge at work OR home
Now, my premise is based on the belief that a super-fast-charger (130 kW) will be more expensive to install and more expensive in terms of electrical costs. It makes sense to me that both the charger H/W AND the physical installation costs will be more expensive for a 130 kW charger than a 45 kW charger. Also, there are 'huge electricity draw' fees (sorry, I can't remember the proper term) - when pulling a large amount of electricity at one time, the electricity cost is higher per kW - often MUCH higher. Now if 45 kW and 130 kW chargers are the same price (both installation AND electricity), then everything changes.
oilerlord
Well-known member
Your perspective comes from driving a car with range of under 100 miles, so yes, you're merely going to relegate the car to short commutes (like I do) and charge at home for the most part. As people buy longer range EV's and choose to take some road trips, all those 30-45-60 minute waits add up. There are only so many breakfasts, lunches, snacks that I can handle before my own weight starts to affect the range of the car I don't mind taking a break to charge the battery, but there are times that i'd rather just get on with my day. 200kW charging would be a good start.
I don't mind taking a break to charge the battery, but there are times that i'd rather just get on with my day. 200kW charging would be a good start.SparkE
Well-known member
oilerlord said:Your perspective comes from driving a car with range of under 100 miles, so yes, you're merely going to relegate the car to short commutes (like I do) and charge at home for the most part. As people buy longer range EV's and choose to take some road trips, all those 30-45-60 minute waits add up. There are only so many breakfasts, lunches, snacks that I can handle before my own weight starts to affect the range of the car
I politely disagree with most of what you said. I do agree that people on longer trips will want a way to charge more quickly (in fact I sort of beat that topic into the ground on another thread a while back). But I think that most people with a 230-mi range BEV, will be charging it at home, overnight. (Well, those who have a spot to charge overnight.) An electric dryer plug (30A/240V) can easily supply a continuous charge rate of 6.6 kW. 10 hours of charging completely fills the battery from dead empty. The 'gas station' model of having to drive somewhere to get a 'fill up' is dying, *except* for people who :
- are on long trips
- don't have a garage (well, an overnight or overday {like at work}) charging location
So, basically, the 'fast' chargers (50 kW) are for people who can't easily charge elsewhere or 'need just a bit extra' and the 'super-fast chargers' (90-135 kW) are for people on trips who want to charge to 70-80% NOW. Everybody else will simply 'fill up' every night at home. Why go through the hassle of driving somewhere to put electricity in your car when the battery will be full when I get up in the morning? Only if I drive more than the car's range in a day. I don't think that will happen THAT often, and the best place for 'super-fast chargers' for those people are NEXT TO THE HIGHWAYS (since that is where they will be anyways, driving to where ever it is that they are going).
Why is it that you disagree that most people are going to be charging their 240-mi-range cars overnight (or over-day)?? That's my basic premise. I think that 240 mi of range makes it LESS likely that you need a DCFC, as you will almost *always* be leaving home (or work) with a full charge. The exception being ... people driving a long distance in one day. Which is what I said, and why I believe that 'super-fast chargers' are best placed to support inter-city traffic, along the major motorways.
People without access to overnight L2 charging will also need DCFCs to enable them to use EVs with some convenience. Condos, apartments, and urban houses often do not come with any sort of powered parking spot, and that impacts a LOT of people. These folks will indeed need >100 kW DCFCs to use their cars conveniently.
SparkE
Well-known member
tgreene said:
I covered the fact that such people may not be able to charge overnight (don't have a garage (well, an overnight or overday {like at work}) charging location), and that they would like fast charging - but it doesn't need to be super-fast. Will some people not buy a BEV this coming March because of it? Yeah. But that isn't needed for BEVs to become more popular - even significantly more popular. Not every transportation solution is convenient for everybody. Some people won't buy BEVs. Some people don't buy diesel. Some people don't buy cars at all - in fact, some of the people you highlighted : those living in an urban environment without reserved parking (appt/condo dwellers) who have decent public transportation. Such as my daughter, who either takes her bicycle or public transit EVERYWHERE and is fine with that. So some people won't buy BEVs until the public charging infrastructure is better. So? You can't do everything for everybody all at once. You pick and choose the solutions to address, one by one (or three by three - but NOT all at once for everybody). And a person living in an appt who doesn't have a private/reserved parking spot really isn't the clientele that one should target first as a prospective $40,000 car buyer.
But just because one doesn't live in a house doesn't mean that L2 charging wouldn't be readily available. Appt complexes in my area are installing EVSEs because quite a few prospective renters don't sign up if there aren't EVSEs available (but then, I think that about half of the ZEVs sold in the U.S. were sold in CA, so there's more pressure for L2 charging than elsewhere in the U.S. today). So many of the apartment complexes around here have (pay) L2 chargers. In CA (and hopefully soon in other states) appt complexes (and condos) MUST allow tenants to install EVSEs if they want to. Of course the tenant must pay for the install - but then I would have to pay for an L2 install at my house as well (mine is just inside). These are appt complexes that have reserved parking, of course. There are also EVSEs at workplaces - for over-day charging while at work.
And L3 chargers (40-50 kW) are springing up more and more rapidly around here by places that want to attract customers with BEVs : restaurants, supermarkets, shopping malls. Many of the malls around here have multiple L3 chargers, just about every Whole Foods around here has at least one L3 (and several L2) chargers, and I can think of one place off the top of my head that is a 'restaurant mall' (a bunch of restaurants in an upscale area) that just installed FOUR 50kW DCFC chargers about 5 months ago. You go there, plug in for 30-45 minutes while you are doing your thing, and then head out.
As an experiment last month (Sep) I went 3 weeks without charging at home. I used L2 chargers at my market (Nob Hill/Raleys/Bel Air), at several restaurants, shopping for clothes (OK, underwear) at Kohl's, at an appt complex near shopping, at BestBuy when I bought a USB3 flash drive (and looked at the new ChromeBooks), and at multiple libraries (San Jose city, Santa Clara city, Cupertino {damn expensive, BTW}, and Campbell). I used DCFC chargers at Whole Foods (some 45 kW, one a paltry 18 kW) and at the drug store, also a slower 22 kW charger. And I used 'work' L2 chargers when I met friends for lunch at their workplace. The price per kWh at all of those chargers was *about* the same price as at home (a little more expensive, but not much). It was no inconvenience for me at all, as I was there doing things I would be doing anyways. I didn't plug in every time I went, I just plugged in when there was a spot available. I *could* have used L2 charging the 2 times I went to the mall for dinner (Santana row - upscale), but the EVSEs are Blink network, and damn expensive (69 cents per kWh!!) - but still avail in a pinch. Oh, and I used a 50 kW DCFC at Facebook when I went to SFO to pick somebody up. All of my 'experiment' had NO overnight charging, and I never filled up the battery completely. I never got under 15 miles range left on the Guess-O-Meter in those 2 weeks, and I ended the week with about an 85% charge. (Then we drove over the hill to Santa Cruz on the weekend and I came back in the evening with about 25 mi left and plugged in in the garage overnight. Surprisingly, hippy-dippy Santa Cruz has a lot less EVSEs around than the South Bay, where they are EVERYWHERE. Sure, there's fewer people, but there are only about 20 plugs available in&around Santa Cruz - and 6 {a third!} are up on the University campus!. I would have used the L3 charger at Whole Foods in SC, but there was a line and I asked everybody waiting how much elec they would need and what plan they had - EVERYBODY in line had free charge cards. Vendors should STOP giving out free charge cards!)
With the decent L2 coverage in my area, I really didn't need to do overnight charging. And I only used the L3 charging *because* my range was so small (a tad over 80 miles on the freeway) - if I had 200+ miles range then I would have found a way to park for 4-5 hours at one of the underused EVSEs (there are several places around that never have less than 50% of the EV spaces available - such as at the appt complex between 10AM-4PM). I mainly use DCFC charging when I *go* somewhere OR I am getting low (fast charging is fastest, and hurts the battery the least, when the battery is low). Perfect example: San Francisco is a 60 mile drive. If I had a Bolt I could drive there & back without recharging, and so I wouldn't be stopping at DCFCs on the way there or back.
Anyhow, with a decent L2 network, and L3 chargers (even the slower ones) at places you are likely to go, it's easily possible to drive an EV even without overnight charging. With overnight charging, you don't need much of a L2 network. And the L3 network should be for 'emergencies' when you need to add some miles, not routinely as your main charging strategy EXCEPT for long distance traveling, where speed of charging is very important and that is where the super-fast charging (90-135 kW for CCS2) realls NEEDS to be installed.
But then my outlook, experiences, and situation obviously aren't going to be the same for everybody or even a majority. For example :
- I live in an area whose EV infrastructure is already what most other areas will be like maybe 5+ years from now. Public L2 locations out the wazoo, L3 chargers every five miles (or closer), multiple L3 stalls/plugs at many locations.
- I'm a family guy. I have more than one car available. I can take an ICE when my EV isn't convenient. I can see that a single 20-something might not buy a BEV.
- I don't have to deal with 10 degree (F) weather. And rarely, anything below 32F (it happens every year, but it isn't 'the norm' Dec-Mar as it is in other places).
I really think that if you had to pick ONE 'biggest thing' stopping people from buying a BEV it's the idea that they can't just jump in the car and take off and drive 300 miles away for the weekend because it is so darn inconvenient (or close to impossible). I think that's the gating item (?the tipping point?) for getting more and more BEVs on the road. Once there are 3- or 6-stall 90+ kW DCSFC stations along the major arteries, every 75-125 miles then the 'oooh, I can't drive to Vegas (or Tahoe, or Big Sur, or ...) for the weekend' boogey man goes away. And then they realize that they don't do it very often, and tell their friends that it really isn't a big deal - you can do it if you want to, but really you just don't do it very often. So after that a lot more people buy BEVs. Maybe at first mainly the ones who DO have overnight charging available to them. Then, as a consequence in our supply-and-demand economy, more workplaces and appts and businesses (where people go for 2-4 hours) put in L2s . And more 'not-super-fast' L3 chargers show up (places of 30-60 minute visits : restaurants, food supermarkets, malls). Etc, etc.
SparkE
Well-known member
Sorry folks, that was longer than I anticipated. It's late, I'm going to bed before I post War and Peace ...
oilerlord
Well-known member
SparkE said:
You assumed that I disagreed with you...not sure how you got there. Perhaps I should have put come context on what I consider a "long" trip. We drove 1900 miles, from Alberta to Phoenix last month. It's a trip we make twice per year. Doing that trip in a Bolt, even if there was DCFC infrastructure along the entire route, would have been a non-starter. Some may find it perfectly fine (and perhaps even "fun") to wait an hour or more every 200 miles. For me, I'd rather just get back on the road. That was the only point I was making. Of course Bolt owners will be charging their cars at home, and for the most part, have little need for DCFC.
SparkE
Well-known member
Ah. Yes, EVs make horrible 'road trip' vehicles (trips over, say, 400 miles). The farther you go, the worse it gets. DCFC charging ONCE is acceptable for most, even at a measly 45 kW - so long as you are only doing it a couple (or fewer) times a year and the DCFC stations are not only working, but you don't have to 'wait your turn'. If you have to charge TWICE (or more) during the trip, 45 kW just won't do, and I can't see people doing it very often (if at all). At that point, a 130+ kW charger is really 'a must' (and even then, anybody driving over 650-700 miles isn't going to want to be driving an EV (and ONE charging stop is probably the max of what most people will put up with).
But an EV that is an OK option 'only' for a 400 mile trip (and 'not great, but doable' for 600 or 800 miles) probably covers AT LEAST 25% of the households in the US (and I'd guess over 50%). Notice i said households, not cars. My household has a 80-ish highway mile range EV AND a gasmobile (two, actually), which suits us perfectly, and would probably suit at least 50% of multi-person families if the EV has a 200+ mile range.
But for people to drop the 'I can't get an EV because I want to drive to aunt Mathilda's house for Xmas' mindset, a network of multi-station, 130+ kW DCFCs is really a must (near and between 80% of the population centers). Once a trip is 'doable' ("sure, you can drive drom NYC down to Atlanta - there's fast charging every 40 miles or so!") it drops the 'but what if I want to ..." objection. Most people don't regularly go on 600 miles trips. And those that do are often families, with a second (or third) vehicle. (Hell, if the SRK or SOLO goes into regular production in the next 9 months, we'll probably become a 4 vehicle family real soon!)
But an EV that is an OK option 'only' for a 400 mile trip (and 'not great, but doable' for 600 or 800 miles) probably covers AT LEAST 25% of the households in the US (and I'd guess over 50%). Notice i said households, not cars. My household has a 80-ish highway mile range EV AND a gasmobile (two, actually), which suits us perfectly, and would probably suit at least 50% of multi-person families if the EV has a 200+ mile range.
But for people to drop the 'I can't get an EV because I want to drive to aunt Mathilda's house for Xmas' mindset, a network of multi-station, 130+ kW DCFCs is really a must (near and between 80% of the population centers). Once a trip is 'doable' ("sure, you can drive drom NYC down to Atlanta - there's fast charging every 40 miles or so!") it drops the 'but what if I want to ..." objection. Most people don't regularly go on 600 miles trips. And those that do are often families, with a second (or third) vehicle. (Hell, if the SRK or SOLO goes into regular production in the next 9 months, we'll probably become a 4 vehicle family real soon!)
sendler2112
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200kW charging is an immense amount of power and would require a complete redesign of the charge cable and port to include liquid cooling. Charging a Bolt at 3.5 times the capacity very often could really shorten the cycle life of the battery.oilerlord said:
SparkE
Well-known member
sendler2112 said:
Both organizations (for CCS and CHAdeMO) have announced they are working towards super-super-extreme-fast-charging. Both standards have announced anticipated installs of 150 kW chargers in 2017, and a goal to get to 350 kW in the near future.
Concerning battery life - the key world in your comment is could - it depends on how it is done. The only super-charging network extant today (Tesla's) does the smart thing : the highest charge rate is only used when the battery is nowhere close to full, and charging rate continually tapers off the fuller the battery gets. I would imagine that any car charging at high rates would do the same : charging at 150kW to (say) 45% SoC, then tapering down to 100 kW and charging at that rate until (maybe) 70% SoC, then ...
The higher charge rates are really needed for reasonable long distance travel in vehicles with larger batteries (over 50kWh). 20 mins of charging would get you somewhere around 150 miles of range (in a 60 kWh capacity vehicle). Stopping for 15-20 mins every 2 1/2 hours is reasonable (not a perfect situation, but reasonable), even if you are driving 600 miles. IF you do it occasionally and not weekly or monthly - THAT would get old very fast (unless you only had to make one stop).
SparkE
Well-known member
Well, it turns out that there is already a 150kW super-charger for CHAdeMO already installed - it's in Switzerland. "gotthard fast charge" has a unit that will fast charge at 150 kW, AND it will charge multiple cars at once (at lower rates - say 3 vehicles at 45 kW). It supports both CCS and CHAdeMO.
sendler2112
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200 kw into a car is 500 Amps. You will need two 25mm diameter cables to carry it. And liquid cooling. And a strong man to cary the cable over to plug it in for you. The only way to go signifcantly higher will be to increase the batery system voltage to 800V and have an automated solid bus bar insert itself into a solid port under the belly of the car right at the battery.
sendler2112
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So then at that point an 800V car could charge much faster. But there are no 800V cars.
SeanNelson
Well-known member
When we get battery packs above 100KWh then they can put some of the cell groups in series to enable 800V charging. It's really those very large packs that are going to need the superhigh charging rates.sendler2112 said:
But it's a chicken-and-egg problem to get the chargers installed. In a way I wish they'd hold off on installing chargers until we get the superfast standards settled, and then deploy chargers that are capable of those standards. This piecemeal rolling out of each new standard just leaves us with a patchwork quilt of chargers of different capabilities which makes choosing charging locations that much more difficult.
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