How Much I Paid for My Bolt

roundpeg said:

DucRider said:

Brands like Apple can milk quite a bit this way - GM not so much, but they may try anyway.

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FWIW, Apple has only ever charged early adopters more than later buyers of a product one time in their entire history that I can recall (the first iPhone). As a rule they make a notable practice of never offering incentives or any other benefit for later adopters of any given product. I mention this only because the auto industry is so completely different. They make constant use of a variety of incentive programs, often of short duration, which they also advertise prominently. This contributes to the carnival atmosphere associated with auto buying, which has been around for so long I guess we are used to it. But for sure it isn't like any other industry.

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Apple typically offers the previous generation of the iPhone at a reduced price once the new model has been released. It tends to be the low-end model of that previous generation.

devbolt said:

Apple typically offers the previous generation of the iPhone at a reduced price once the new model has been released. It tends to be the low-end model of that previous generation.

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Yes, when they introduce a new flagship iPhone, the older iPhone often becomes the entry level iPhone. With the one exception stated, however, they never offer rebates or other forms of incentive pricing that makes early adopters pay more for the privilege. In the one case where they did try this, they were boiled in metaphorical oil and never tried it again. Car makers on the other hand do this constantly by making various incentives available for limited times. Car buying is full of this kind of nonsense, which we accept as normal because "that's the way it's always been." This only goes to show how different are the expectations of consumers when they buy cars vs. everything else.

devbolt said:

DaveN007 said:

I save $250 a month on my electric bill because I have a $78 a month EV in my garage. I have had many, many people argue with me about how this can't be true. "I don't rent my cars." is what I hear a lot from people who are about 1/10th as financially secure as I am.

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How exactly do you save on your electric bill because you have an EV in your garage? Solar on the roof? Time of Use EV rate schedule? Cost shifting of monthly car payment to electric bill?

For me, a lease never makes financial sense because of the high mileage I put on my cars (20K or more per year). I'd rather own the car, keep it for 7 to 12 years, and then sell it.

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EV-A rate plan. It is a TOU plan that dramatically reduces my bill because I no longer spend 3 weeks a month paying top tier for every Kwh I consume. If you consider all costs associated with my 24 month lease recently completed, my savings on my electric bill allowed me to drive the car for free + about $800. My latest car is $80 per month less than the first one. So I expect free + a couple thousand over the next 36 months if we can restrain ourselves from the lure of using some of the cheap power at night for things like "staying comfortable". Lol.

You are definitely an outlier from an EV perspective. The vast majority own other vehicles, and so far ZERO have owned their EV for 7 to 12 years. You are talking about the care and feeding of a horse on a car forum. ;-) I drive more than 20k a year. But my Fiat gets less than 10k of those miles. Closer to 5k a year.

No one knows what the TCO over 5 let alone 12 years will look like. We have some hints, and it doesn't look good. Aside from Tesla which only recently ended it's artificial support for values, we don't see anything near the depreciation curve for an ICE vehicle. It is much, much worse.

Don't fall for the "zero maintenance" nonsense. These cars feature a lot of electronics that are "maintained" by swapping components. No one gets out a soldering iron to do a $5 fix. The whole module is replaced when the diagnostic machine says it is bad. That's fine while you are under warranty.

It remains to be seen if the Bolt will change the game. I don't believe that it will. I think most people will still have a Bolt as a second or third vehicle. Most will be in higher income brackets. A Bolt will allow me to drive more EV miles than I can now, but it can't replace all of my cars.

If you want to "own" your car for 7 to 12 years and put 20k miles a year on it...and you buy an EV...I salute your pioneering spirit.

I currently have 6 cars. 2 are leased. 4 are "owned" in the sense that I have the "pink slips". I did the math on the cost of owning a used Honda Civic for 3 years and it was greater than leasing a Fiat for my daughter. Depreciation, maintenance, fuel, insurance, registration...etc.

Another thing to be aware of when leasing an EV...if you total the car, you owe the residual. Insurance companies are looking at market values that turn out to be HALF of the residual and some people have found themselves in a sticky situation. "Gap" insurance doesn't always solve this problem.

devbolt said:

For me, a lease never makes financial sense because of the high mileage I put on my cars (20K or more per year). I'd rather own the car, keep it for 7 to 12 years, and then sell it.

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Leasing usually makes sense with an EV

For example, I leased my Focus Electric for three years, 19,500 miles per year. And in fact Ford would have offered even higher mileage leases if I had wanted them. At the end, the residual was $18K, but the actual value was less than half that. And the battery was fading.

If I had bought the car, I would have been in very bad shape. By leasing it, the risk transferred to Ford Credit.

The sum of all my lease payments less the California $2500 rebate was less than $10,500, effectively about $290/month. The car was fully equipped (nav, leather, special paint, premium sound, etc). Sticker price was about $39K

Was the federal tax credit applied to the purchase price or to the back end of the lease? Was Ford offering any other incentives to buyers at that time?

michael said:

Leasing usually makes sense with an EV

For example, I leased my Focus Electric for three years, 19,500 miles per year. And in fact Ford would have offered even higher mileage leases if I had wanted them. At the end, the residual was $18K, but the actual value was less than half that. And the battery was fading.

If I had bought the car, I would have been in very bad shape. By leasing it, the risk transferred to Ford Credit.

The sum of all my lease payments less the California $2500 rebate was less than $10,500, effectively about $290/month. The car was fully equipped (nav, leather, special paint, premium sound, etc). Sticker price was about $39K

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^^^This too.

I was shopping used Ford EV's for a while too. I had a deal pending on a full-load 2013 that had only 6K miles on it at $11,500. A whopping 70% off MSRP. Michael's car with 60K miles was probably worth no more than $7,000. I still can't get my head around how much EV's depreciate, and how much automakers are prepared to lose on them - on both the front and back ends of the deal. Damn, those ZEV credits must be gold.

The lessor may not be the manufacturer. Are they prepared to take a financial hit as a favor to the manufacturer? Certainly they aren't. So this means almost without a doubt that artificially favorable lease terms involve cash subsidies passed from the manufacturer to the lessor, which also means they'd provide similarly-valued incentives directly to a buyer. It isn't not happening because the lessee hasn't posed that question to their dealer. So my point remains the same. Lots of talking around it but not to it.

michael said:

devbolt said:

For me, a lease never makes financial sense because of the high mileage I put on my cars (20K or more per year). I'd rather own the car, keep it for 7 to 12 years, and then sell it.

Click to expand...

Leasing usually makes sense with an EV

For example, I leased my Focus Electric for three years, 19,500 miles per year. And in fact Ford would have offered even higher mileage leases if I had wanted them. At the end, the residual was $18K, but the actual value was less than half that. And the battery was fading.

If I had bought the car, I would have been in very bad shape. By leasing it, the risk transferred to Ford Credit.

The sum of all my lease payments less the California $2500 rebate was less than $10,500, effectively about $290/month. The car was fully equipped (nav, leather, special paint, premium sound, etc). Sticker price was about $39K

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Were you on the hook for the difference between the original residual value and the actual value at the end of the lease? I literally do 22K to 24K per year just commuting to/from work, so in the past, traditional leases that cap mileage at 12K a year have never made sense. At 25 cents a mile, I'd essentially have a $7500+ balloon payment due at the end of the lease. However, if they could structure a lease that included 24K miles a year, and was cheaper than what a traditional loan for 5 years would be, then I might be interested in leasing.

oilerlord said:

Damn, those ZEV credits must be gold.

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Tesla's company wide push to show a Q3 profit worked to the tune of $21.9 million. They earned $138.5 million by selling ZEV credits.

roundpeg said:

Was the federal tax credit applied to the purchase price or to the back end of the lease? Was Ford offering any other incentives to buyers at that time?

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Ford Credit treats the $7500 as a capital reduction (in other words, as if I had made a down payment). For that reason, I paid sales tax on the $7500. Ford Credit takes the entire hit on the difference between the residual and the actual value at lease end, not my problem.

US Bank, who leased me the Volts, treats it differently...they use it to artificially raise the residual. This avoids my paying sales tax, but it works to their advantage if the car is totaled or bought out at lease end...they still get to pocket the $7500.

Different approaches, not a big impact either way.

Yes, there were other incentives in effect as well, and they were applied. In addition, the dealer gave his own discount.

And of course I also got $2500 in cash from California.

Zero driveaway, 35 payments due and then I turned it in.

roundpeg said:

The lessor may not be the manufacturer. Are they prepared to take a financial hit as a favor to the manufacturer? Certainly they aren't. So this means almost without a doubt that artificially favorable lease terms involve cash subsidies passed from the manufacturer to the lessor, which also means they'd provide similarly-valued incentives directly to a buyer. It isn't not happening because the lessee hasn't posed that question to their dealer. So my point remains the same. Lots of talking around it but not to it.

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You are right about equivalent incentives being available to a buyer, but...

1. In the case the of the $7500, there is no risk that it will be denied by the IRS or that someone's tax status will prevent them from taking advantage of it. It's a done deal

2. The biggest issue is the fact that the actual values are far below the agreed upon residual. This is the leasing company's problem. If you buy it, it's yours

3. The issue of battery fade is not well recognized. When I bought my Focus, people on the Focus Electric board were congratulating themselves, believing the fact that the Focus has a liquid cooled battery would allow it to last for many years. It's much better than the Leaf, but the battery still fades with use.

DaveN007 said:

devbolt said:

DaveN007 said:

I save $250 a month on my electric bill because I have a $78 a month EV in my garage. I have had many, many people argue with me about how this can't be true. "I don't rent my cars." is what I hear a lot from people who are about 1/10th as financially secure as I am.

Click to expand...

How exactly do you save on your electric bill because you have an EV in your garage? Solar on the roof? Time of Use EV rate schedule? Cost shifting of monthly car payment to electric bill?

For me, a lease never makes financial sense because of the high mileage I put on my cars (20K or more per year). I'd rather own the car, keep it for 7 to 12 years, and then sell it.

Click to expand...

EV-A rate plan. It is a TOU plan that dramatically reduces my bill because I no longer spend 3 weeks a month paying top tier for every Kwh I consume. If you consider all costs associated with my 24 month lease recently completed, my savings on my electric bill allowed me to drive the car for free + about $800. My latest car is $80 per month less than the first one. So I expect free + a couple thousand over the next 36 months if we can restrain ourselves from the lure of using some of the cheap power at night for things like "staying comfortable". Lol.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing you live in a PG&E territory like me. I can see how the EV-A rate could lower your costs for charging, especially if you were able to shift when you use the bulk of your electricity for other stuff. However, you could've gotten similar cost savings just by switching to one of the other Time of Use plans that PG&E offers. The new TOU rate that PG&E has come out with also eliminates rate tiers, but doesn't have a rock-bottom rate of 11 to 12 cents for overnight charging, but does provide a baseline credit.

I'm on E-6 with Solar. I haven't done the math (spreadsheet) to determine if it's advantageous for me to switch to EV-A. Overnight on E6 is 15.1 cents in the summer, and 15.5 cents in the winter, which is only a 3.5 cents a kWh difference. That comes to about only an extra dollar or so a day for the amount of charging I probably will be doing. Also, the peak/off-peak/partial-peak times are different on EV-A which could have a negative impact on maximizing the credits I'm earning during the day with excess Solar generation.

Have you thought about going Solar? Sounds like you might be able to save a lot if you are in the upper tiers 1 week into the month. We went from paying PG&E ~$250 a month to paying only minimum bill amounts (~$10). Our lease payment is only ~$110 a month. So that's a ~$130 a month savings.

DaveN007 said:

You are definitely an outlier from an EV perspective. The vast majority own other vehicles, and so far ZERO have owned their EV for 7 to 12 years. You are talking about the care and feeding of a horse on a car forum. ;-) I drive more than 20k a year. But my Fiat gets less than 10k of those miles. Closer to 5k a year.

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We own 3 cars, so not necessarily an outlier. We have a 2012 Plug-in Prius that I use for my daily commute (which is about 22K to 24K a year). A Highlander Hybrid that is used for the other long-distance travel that we do (16K to 18K miles a year), plus my wife's Mini Countryman that she keeps in Southern California for work. That one gets about 6K to 8K miles per year, but when she had it up in Northern California, it was also a higher mileage (15K a year) vehicle. The Bolt will replace the PiP for my daily commute, and the PiP will replace my wife's car in SoCal, and the Countryman will get sold.

DaveN007 said:

No one knows what the TCO over 5 let alone 12 years will look like. We have some hints, and it doesn't look good. Aside from Tesla which only recently ended it's artificial support for values, we don't see anything near the depreciation curve for an ICE vehicle. It is much, much worse.

Click to expand...

In what sense does it not look good? Nissan's battery degradation issues shouldn't affect the Bolt because the Bolt uses an active thermal management system as opposed to Nissan's passive and less than stellar system. The Bolt's system was borrowed from the Volt and presumably improved upon.

EVs are still in the nascent stage of things, so of course we don't have a real good handle on TCO, but so far it appears to be a lot cheaper than an ICE. Long term value, yes, that's a difficult one because evolving technology and improvements in range can make older models a lot less valuable when you can buy a new model with better range for the same price or cheaper. Welcome to living on the bleeding edge of technology.

DaveN007 said:

Don't fall for the "zero maintenance" nonsense. These cars feature a lot of electronics that are "maintained" by swapping components. No one gets out a soldering iron to do a $5 fix. The whole module is replaced when the diagnostic machine says it is bad. That's fine while you are under warranty.

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In the 7.5 years I had my 2005 Prius it never needed any electronics replaced. Only stuff I ever had to do was a brake job, and a catalytic converter at ~145K miles (replaced under warranty). It's now 12 years old and being driven by my son. In the 4.5 years and 112K miles I've driven the PiP, no failures at all. Just standard oil changes every 10K miles, tire rotations, filters, etc. And no degradation in range or MPG. Not zero maintenance, but minimal.

Keep in mind that the battery and the electric drive components in EVs all carry a 8 year or 100K mile warranty, which is way beyond what normal cars have, even on on the powertrain.

DaveN007 said:

It remains to be seen if the Bolt will change the game. I don't believe that it will. I think most people will still have a Bolt as a second or third vehicle. Most will be in higher income brackets. A Bolt will allow me to drive more EV miles than I can now, but it can't replace all of my cars.

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And the Bolt won't replace all of our cars, just the one I use to commute in.

DaveN007 said:

If you want to "own" your car for 7 to 12 years and put 20k miles a year on it...and you buy an EV...I salute your pioneering spirit.

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Someone has to blaze a trail. It paid off with the 2005 Prius, it's working well with the 2012 PiP, and I hope that it will work well with the Bolt. GM is no Toyota, but they've learned a lot in the past 6 years with the Volt, and hopefully have applied that knowledge to the Bolt in terms of engineering a reliable EV. It's a crap-shoot, and I recognize that. And leasing, if the money makes sense, might be the better way to go to reduce my risk.

DaveN007 said:

I currently have 6 cars. 2 are leased. 4 are "owned" in the sense that I have the "pink slips". I did the math on the cost of owning a used Honda Civic for 3 years and it was greater than leasing a Fiat for my daughter. Depreciation, maintenance, fuel, insurance, registration...etc.

Another thing to be aware of when leasing an EV...if you total the car, you owe the residual. Insurance companies are looking at market values that turn out to be HALF of the residual and some people have found themselves in a sticky situation. "Gap" insurance doesn't always solve this problem.

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We've always bought a newer car for us to have and passed down the older car to the children to use. The car is already paid for, and has been well maintained, so there's usually no surprises.

I'll keep in mind the point about leasing and residual values and insurance companies. I've never needed to get GAP insurance, and had I ever had it, it never would've paid off.

michael said:

You are right about equivalent incentives being available to a buyer, but...

1. In the case the of the $7500, there is no risk that it will be denied by the IRS or that someone's tax status will prevent them from taking advantage of it. It's a done deal

2. The biggest issue is the fact that the actual values are far below the agreed upon residual. This is the leasing company's problem. If you buy it, it's yours

3. The issue of battery fade is not well recognized. When I bought my Focus, people on the Focus Electric board were congratulating themselves, believing the fact that the Focus has a liquid cooled battery would allow it to last for many years. It's much better than the Leaf, but the battery still fades with use.

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1. If you have $7,500.00 in federal tax liability, the chances of the credit being denied by the IRS or taken by somebody else (?) are zero. If you don't have that level of tax liability, or don't know if you will, you might well be better off letting the leasing company take the credit.

2. So what I am hearing is that EV car buyers, including some who've owned a few, understand the residual values of the cars far better than the companies that finance tens of thousands of them every year. On the scale of unlikely to likely the meter does not budge. What is actually happening here with little doubt is the manufacturer is passing an incentive along to the leasing company, an incentive that may well have been available to you directly. As a lessee you are not seeing it except as an inflated residual, but trust me, it's there, and the leasing company is not taking a bath on tens of thousands of EVs.

3. Again, this assumes leasing companies are stupid to begin with, and even after years and tens of thousands of experiences leasing these cars, never learn. That's quite a theory. It doesn't move my likelihood meter off the pin either.

I just got an update, my build date is 12/5, event status code is 3000. I have read that a delivery of three weeks after the build date is feesable. That means that I could be driving my Bolt before the end of this year, that's quite remarkable.

leodoggie said:

I just got an update, my build date is 12/5, event status code is 3000. I have read that a delivery of three weeks after the build date is feesable. That means that I could be driving my Bolt before the end of this year, that's quite remarkable.

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Woo hoo! Let us know when your event status changes to 3300. That's when the TPW is finalized.

devbolt said:

leodoggie said:

I just got an update, my build date is 12/5, event status code is 3000. I have read that a delivery of three weeks after the build date is feesable. That means that I could be driving my Bolt before the end of this year, that's quite remarkable.

Click to expand...

Woo hoo! Let us know when your event status changes to 3300. That's when the TPW is finalized.

Click to expand...

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Has anyone's order reached 3300?

roundpeg said:

michael said:

You are right about equivalent incentives being available to a buyer, but...

1. In the case the of the $7500, there is no risk that it will be denied by the IRS or that someone's tax status will prevent them from taking advantage of it. It's a done deal

2. The biggest issue is the fact that the actual values are far below the agreed upon residual. This is the leasing company's problem. If you buy it, it's yours

3. The issue of battery fade is not well recognized. When I bought my Focus, people on the Focus Electric board were congratulating themselves, believing the fact that the Focus has a liquid cooled battery would allow it to last for many years. It's much better than the Leaf, but the battery still fades with use.

Click to expand...

1. If you have $7,500.00 in federal tax liability, the chances of the credit being denied by the IRS or taken by somebody else (?) are zero. If you don't have that level of tax liability, or don't know if you will, you might well be better off letting the leasing company take the credit.

2. So what I am hearing is that EV car buyers, including some who've owned a few, understand the residual values of the cars far better than the companies that finance tens of thousands of them every year. On the scale of unlikely to likely the meter does not budge. What is actually happening here with little doubt is the manufacturer is passing an incentive along to the leasing company, an incentive that may well have been available to you directly. As a lessee you are not seeing it except as an inflated residual, but trust me, it's there, and the leasing company is not taking a bath on tens of thousands of EVs.

3. Again, this assumes leasing companies are stupid to begin with, and even after years and tens of thousands of experiences leasing these cars, never learn. That's quite a theory. It doesn't move my likelihood meter off the pin either.

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There have been numerous reports of the I RS denying the tax credit. In some cases there was an IRS error, in some cases a dealer had claimed the credit for the car. Even if successfully resolved, it's a hassle

Yes. I understood the future residual value of the car better than Ford Credit did.. That's why they now are sitting with a Focus worth maybe $7000 and I'm not.

But if you prefer to buy rather than lease OK by me. If you can find a way to get that $10k discrepancy between my residual and the current value of the car, you are a much better buyer than I or anyone I know.

I'm not going to base my decision on rumors. You are welcome do so yourself, if you think that's wise.

As for the rest, you might want to reread my comments in this thread. All the points you raise have already been addressed in detail.

leodoggie said:

I just got an update, my build date is 12/5, event status code is 3000. I have read that a delivery of three weeks after the build date is feesable. That means that I could be driving my Bolt before the end of this year, that's quite remarkable.

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Build date (actually the Monday of the build week) on my order is 11/28, event status 3000.

roundpeg said:

Build date (actually the Monday of the build week) on my order is 11/28, event status 3000.

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There is a little known upgrade code "3004" where you can request your car be built on a Thursday. I did some research, and have found that all GM employees get paid on Thursday. Further, GM did an internal employee satisfaction survey, and the results coincided with a spike in production and overall line build quality on all cars produced on Thursday. As such, you can make a request to the GM of your dealership to upgrade to code 3004 - meaning your car gets built on the fourth day of the week. The 3004 code is essentially insurance against a line worker getting a case of the Mondays. The best thing: It's a no cost option. When you log in online, you'll see the event status change from 3000 to 3004. Typically it only takes about 48 hours for the request to go through.