Are Electric Cars Really Green? PragerU PragerU

oilerlord said:

DucRider said:

If all you are looking at is CO2 vs a gas ICE, that is true. Your VW TDI in "cheat mode" is actually much better than that: ~110 g/km or 177 g/mile at the tailpipe

Real world testing CO2 levels on TDI's puts CO2 @~250 to 400 g/m. Add in upstream GHG of 58 g/m (CO2 of US diesel for a 40 mpg vehicle) and that puts you at 300+ g/mile

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The biggest issue with diesels is NOx
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Your VW (with the lean NOx trap) dynos @ .022 g/km or well within the EPA .043 g/km limit.
Real world measurements are a different story - up to 70 times the legal limit has been observed, and 2012 vintage TDI's test at levels that vary between .62 and 1.5 g/km depending on driving conditions.

Google NOx effects and you'll find links as to how nasty it is.

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Gary, you're splitting hairs. My VW generally returns about 45mpg on the freeways of the Phoenix valley. There are a lot of old smoking V-8 clunkers, and monster trucks in the valley that are doing a lot more damage to the environment that my car is, so I'm comfortable with the choice I made going with a very fuel efficient car. While I don't disagree that diesel is bad - gasoline isn't necessarily "clean" either, so please don't defend it.

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VW diesels are some of the dirtiest engines on the road. I'm not defending gas, but your VW at 45 mpg produces far more pollution than any 40 (or even 25) mpg gas powered vehicle.

Much of what you like about the car (efficiency and torque/power) is a direct result of VW making a conscious decision to exceed allowed emissions by many magnitudes. I know (from previous discussions) that you're entirely comfortable with the amount of pollution it produces. I just wanted to make it clear that it is not in any way as "clean" as a 40 mpg gas car as you claimed earlier. The mpg equivalency produced by the calculators have an inherent assumption that the ICE vehicle meets emission standards.

You are certainly free to rationalize driving your "fuel efficient" VW. Just don't confuse fuel efficient with clean.

Gary, one of my other choices is being an environmental moderate, not an extremist. So, I'll reply in kind as I did with another member that implied that I'm killing people with my fuel efficient car:

Fortunately, I offset all of my VW's CO2, SO2, and NOx but thanks for the lesson in environmental morality 101. Want to buy some credits? I have plenty to spare:



Clean up your own backyard before you criticize mine.

Now that the official position of the Trump administration is that there is no such thing as air pollution, why did we even bother to get electric cars!?!

I should have gone with a "clean" coal automobile! :lol:

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/42541-now-there-are-air-pollution-deniers-too

oilerlord said:

Gary, one of my other choices is being an environmental moderate, not an extremist. So, I'll reply in kind as I did with another member that implied that I'm killing people with my fuel efficient car:

Fortunately, I offset all of my VW's CO2, SO2, and NOx but thanks for the lesson in environmental morality 101. Want to buy some credits? I have plenty to spare:

Clean up your own backyard before you criticize mine.

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Offsetting may reduce your net impact, but it does not make your diesel clean. I have never said a thing about your net impact. You continue to brag about the efficiency of your VW diesel ( obtained only by bypassing all emissions standards).

Imagine how many more credits you could offer to sell if you drove a vehicle that complied with emissions regulations.

I use 100% renewable power. I can't fit panels on my roof effectively (max is ~2 kW), so elect the green power option (100% renewable) offered by my utility company. It adds $0.008 per kWh to my bill.

My backyard is plenty clean, thank you very much (and my non-EV gets 40+ mpg without spewing excess pollutants).

The huge solar offsets you show are largely due to how "dirty" Alberta power is - 51% coal (plus 39% natural gas). Putting Solar on you roof to power your 250e was definitely the way to go.

DucRider said:

Offsetting may reduce your net impact, but it does not make your diesel clean. I have never said a thing about your net impact. You continue to brag about the efficiency of your VW diesel ( obtained only by bypassing all emissions standards).

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The cheater VWs' were cheating on the NOx emissions. For diesel engines, the main issues are NOx and soot; soot is unsightly, so cheating too much there would be too obvious (and ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel and particulate traps are effective). CO and HC emissions are typically not difficult for diesel engines to keep down.

Historical NOx limits (g per mile):

Federal Tier 0, 1981-1993: 1.0
Federal Tier I, 1997-2003: 0.6 gasoline, 1.0 diesel
Federal Tier II, 2007-2016: 0.00 to 0.15 (7 compliance bins); 0.07 fleet average
California 1997-2003: 0.2 (SULEV) to 0.6 (TLEV, Tier I)
California 2007-2016: 0.00 (ZEV) to 0.07 (LEV II)

Measured NOx emissions for cheater VWs on a dyno were 0.022 for a Jetta and 0.016 for a Passat, but on-road measured NOx emissions were 0.61-1.5 for the Jetta and 0.34-0.67 for the Passat. The Passat had the urea-using emissions system, but the Jetta did not.

DucRider said:

Offsetting may reduce your net impact, but it does not make your diesel clean. I have never said a thing about your net impact.

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I never claimed that my diesel was "clean", in fact, I say as much in my signature. You never said a thing about my net impact because if we're being honest with each other - you don't give a damn about it. I've already told you about the steps I've taken that offset my household emissions footprint but you're more concerned about minutia and chasing the pedantic to recognize them.

I can't get a buyback because VW won't offer me one because I imported the car from the US. I could sell the VW and simply transfer the "problem" to someone else, but as it is now - the car only travels about 8,000 miles per year. I can still recognize what the VW does well, while putting the majority of my miles on the EV. If that doesn't measure up to your standards for environmental excellence, too bad.

oilerlord said:

I never claimed that my diesel was "clean"....

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Really?

oilerlord said:

My VW with it's average 40 mpg doesn't appear to be so "dirty" vs an EV fueled from the local Phoenix power grid.

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An EV fueled from the 85215 power grid is magnitudes cleaner than your VW. A high mpg ICE (hybrid.etc.) that complies with emissions requirements is still dirtier than a BEV.

Different website, calculator and numbers, but the relationship is the same.
Your B250e: 250 g/mile of CO2
2014 C-Max (39 mpg): 274 g/mile (tailpipe and upstream)
2014 Prius V (52 mpg): 205 g/mile
2017 Bolt EV: 160 g/mile

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=85215&year=2014&vehicleId=35247&action=bt3
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34696&id=34317&id=38061&id=38187

You're taking my words out of context for the sole purpose of winning an argument that isn't worth winning. Dude, we're on the same side. We both care about the environment, and are doing our part in our own ways. Let's keep the small things small.

The scandal is over. VW is dealing with it. Gary, it's time to let it go.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

I think the actual point here is that people in the midwest should be getting shamed for opening their refrigerators too often.

I don't care about the air or environment... EVs, at this point in history, are not going the change the environment, just like not using plastic bags at the supermarket, or not eating meat. It's like eating lettuce at a Chinese Buffet restaurant to help save the world of obesity... There are too many beings around the world fighting against you. For every Electric car that is sold in the US, there are 100 new Indians, Chinese, or middle easterners who just bought ICE cars, (and especially MOPEDS, which are the most polluting vehicles in the world) in order to get a piece of the pie of US capitalism.

My point is this. We should use electric cars for: 1) Not using up the world's limited resource of OIL (foreign and domestic), 2) Reducing our need to protect middle eastern oil areas through military intervention. 3) Reducing our Automobile fuel costs (At current gas prices, EVs are more that 2-3x cheaper than even the most fuels efficient ICE cars.) When oil prices go up, the savings will be even greater. 4) reducing our maintenance costs of no oil, transmission fluid, an antifreeze changes, and exhaust systems to repair. (this also has the DIRECT result of helping the environment by eliminating the need to dump toxic waste of oil and fluids in our environment. 4) Becoming a more self sufficient country by needing to rely less on foreign oil and automotive supplies.

Personally, I don't see that any individual country can reduce air pollution or stop global warming. Just because we, and other educated nations are aware of these issues does not mean that the rest of the world would ever even be aware of the issues. Most of the world does not have running water or indoor toilets for goodness sake. Do you think they even know that there are polar ice caps to be melted??

My final thought about EVs. Many will say that EVs are not green because they ultimately run on polluting coal. Well, I don't hear people complaining that they should stop running their home lights or air conditioners because the electricity they use is polluting.. Actually, Charging an electric car uses about the same amount of electricity as running a microwave oven or a 240v air conditioner during the 2-3 hours that the car is charging.. That sounds pretty GREEN to me??

In summary, IMHO, but an electric car...... It's good for YOU, and YOUR BOTTOM LINE...!!!

powersurge said:

My point is this. We should use electric cars for: 1) Not using up the world's limited resource of OIL (foreign and domestic), 2) Reducing our need to protect middle eastern oil areas through military intervention.

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I always wondered why people in the US fail to make the connection that many of the US' foreign policy and national security problems (some of which involve expensive military intervention) are oil related or oil fuelled (e.g. some of IS' income comes from oil smuggling, so high oil demand and high oil prices = more money for IS).

People are also concerned about trade deficits. Oil use in the US still requires net imports, unlike other energy sources.

powersurge said:

Personally, I don't see that any individual country can reduce air pollution or stop global warming. Just because we, and other educated nations are aware of these issues does not mean that the rest of the world would ever even be aware of the issues. Most of the world does not have running water or indoor toilets for goodness sake. Do you think they even know that there are polar ice caps to be melted??

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Some poor countries are among the ones whose populations are threatened by rising sea levels.

powersurge said:

Personally, I don't see that any individual country can reduce air pollution or stop global warming. Just because we, and other educated nations are aware of these issues does not mean that the rest of the world would ever even be aware of the issues. Most of the world does not have running water or indoor toilets for goodness sake. Do you think they even know that there are polar ice caps to be melted??

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It seems to me that you have a pretty low opinion of other countries, and a pretty defeatist attitude to global problems that affect all of us.

China is ahead of us in EV adoption, and they have just reaffirmed their commitment to the Paris Accord.

SeanNelson said:

powersurge said:

Personally, I don't see that any individual country can reduce air pollution or stop global warming. Just because we, and other educated nations are aware of these issues does not mean that the rest of the world would ever even be aware of the issues. Most of the world does not have running water or indoor toilets for goodness sake. Do you think they even know that there are polar ice caps to be melted??

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It seems to me that you have a pretty low opinion of other countries, and a pretty defeatist attitude to global problems that affect all of us.

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I know that many people in other countries, have been living at a subsistence economic level in the past. More and more of those people are working in factories and are able to amass $$$, and will be buying cars, and products, just like the advanced countries. Those countries are happy to modernize, and IMO couldn't care less about world ecology. They just want to have things like cars, just like we have. That is not a put down of those countries, but a reality that third world countries are advancing and want.... "A PIECE OF OUR ACTION" period... And those are the people which we will have to be competing against to get OUR OIL in the future. That is why going electric is the key to our future, or else there will be future global war over what is left of the world's oil...

powersurge said:

I know that many people in other countries, have been living at a subsistence economic level in the past. More and more of those people are working in factories and are able to amass $$$, and will be buying cars, and products, just like the advanced countries. Those countries are happy to modernize, and IMO couldn't care less about world ecology. They just want to have things like cars, just like we have. That is not a put down of those countries, but a reality that third world countries are advancing and want.... "A PIECE OF OUR ACTION" period... And those are the people which we will have to be competing against to get OUR OIL in the future. That is why going electric is the key to our future, or else there will be future global war over what is left of the world's oil...

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Ok then.

A wise man once said: "It’s not about huggin’ trees... It’s not about being wasteful, either... Just gotta find that balance where taking care of yourself takes care of more than...just yourself."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iawpwAxmEI