EV Owners Unfairly Targeted in New Gas Tax Bill

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sgt1372

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Joined
Feb 6, 2017
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SF Bay Area
Found out about this via the Tesla forum. See: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/proposing-extra-100-registration-evs-fix-pot-holes-preposterous

There's a new CA gas tax bill that would charge EV owners $100/year, ICE owners $38 extra registration each year and increase the gas tax by 12 cents per gallon.

There is general support for this bill "in principle" because the roads need t be fixed but EV owners are being unfairly targets for extra revenue by this bill.

See: http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/06/would-higher-gas-tax-fill-our-spreading-potholes/

This is the comment that I posted to the article and to the Tesla forum:

"The roads need to be fixed but why should EV owners/lessees pay $100 -- $62 more than for an ICE vehicle? That makes no sense.

It's obvious that they can't get any gas tax $ from EV owners but to charge EV vehicles $68 more to make up for whatever the shortfall might be is unfair and speculative at best.

How many gallons of gas does that extra $68 represent? That equals 566.67 gallons ($68 divided by 12 cents) of gas that EV users are being charged for that they aren't going to ever use.

The EPA mileage equivalent for a Chevy Bolt is 119 MPGe. That would mean that a Bolt driver would be presumed to drive 67,434 miles (556.67x119) per year!!!!

That's ridiculous and demonstrates how much of an overcharge the additional EV tax really is".

If Bolt owners/lessees in CA want to complain about something (other than the seats), we should really complain about this.
 
sgt1372 said:
Found out about this via the Tesla forum. See: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/proposing-extra-100-registration-evs-fix-pot-holes-preposterous

There's a new CA gas tax bill that would charge EV owners $100/year, ICE owners $38 extra registration each year and increase the gas tax by 12 cents per gallon.

Looks like $38 + $0.12 * gallons would be more than $100 for many thirstier (<23mpg) ICE vehicles, but less than $100 for less thirsty (>23mpg) ICE vehicles, if driven an average of 12,000 miles. Of course, there is also existing fuel tax that ICE vehicles pay.
 
It sounds completely fair to me. WA has the same $100/year tax for EVs but, of course, no gas tax ($0.49/gallon).
 
I believe that at some point in the future, EV's will (hopefully) become commonplace and will therefore need to pay some proportionate part of what are in effect "road taxes". For the moment, however, they are so rare that the government finds it appropriate to offer all sorts of incentives to make people give them a try...carpool lanes, tax breaks, etc.

What is the logic of doing the above and at the same time discouraging EV use by adding a separate and additional tax?

I fully support the increase in gasoline taxes and think that should be done progressively until a reasonable number of people are weaned off of gasoline. At that point, tax everyone by the mile, by weight, by something appropriate
 
I hate to pay more tax but it can't be avoided. I pay, in NE 75.00$ more as a flat tax because I have a pure electric car. To compensate for gas tax. Way less tax then I would pay for an ice car. If they are increasing the tax on ca registrations for both cars and it's only 68$ more, that's not bad. If an electric car is compair to an ICE car that gets 30 mpg with 15k miles in a year that's 290$ in taxes the ICE car pays in CA taxes that the electrics doesn't. It WILL be more in he future as electric cars become more mainstream and they receive less taxes from gas. They will have to get it somewhere.
 
sgt1372 said:
"The roads need to be fixed but why should EV owners/lessees pay $100 -- $62 more than for an ICE vehicle? That makes no sense.
It's because ICE vehicles pay additional taxes for road maintenance when they buy gas, but EVs don't. The idea is that the taxes for road maintenance should be spread more fairly across both ICE and EV drivers.

Ultimately, the fairest way to do this would be to tax everyone, ICE and EVs alike, by miles traveled - factored perhaps by some combination of vehicle weight and perhaps number of axles. But tracking miles traveled has some technical and privacy issues that most governments don't want to wade into.
 
sgt1372 said:
If Bolt owners/lessees in CA want to complain about something (other than the seats), we should really complain about this.
Really!?!

Everyone hates us already for getting:

1) Federal tax credit

2) State (CA) rebate

3) Home charging rebate (SoCal Edison, LADWP and many more)

4) Free electricity charging (City of LA)

5) HOV lanes

Now you don't want to pay a measly $100 per year to upgrade the millions of miles of roads in California that we use alongside our gas powered brothers and sisters?

Give it up!
 
I'd be a little upset if the new tax were only for EVs but it's not; the tax increase on both gas and electric cars is clearly designed to be similar. I drive 20k miles per year and if I had a 35 mpg gas car I'd pay $106/year extra. With the EV I'd pay $100/year extra. Basically the same.
 
SeanNelson said:
sgt1372 said:
"The roads need to be fixed but why should EV owners/lessees pay $100 -- $62 more than for an ICE vehicle? That makes no sense.
It's because ICE vehicles pay additional taxes for road maintenance when they buy gas, but EVs don't. The idea is that the taxes for road maintenance should be spread more fairly across both ICE and EV drivers.

Ultimately, the fairest way to do this would be to tax everyone, ICE and EVs alike, by miles traveled - factored perhaps by some combination of vehicle weight and perhaps number of axles. But tracking miles traveled has some technical and privacy issues that most governments don't want to wade into.


Miles travelled is trivial. Read the odometer. On star sends me an email every month telling the miles travelled. In the case of a lease tax the allowed miles even. What's the privacy issue in that??
 
MichaelLAX said:
sgt1372 said:
If Bolt owners/lessees in CA want to complain about something (other than the seats), we should really complain about this.
Really!?!

Everyone hates us already for getting:

1) Federal tax credit

2) State (CA) rebate

3) Home charging rebate (SoCal Edison, LADWP and many more)

4) Free electricity charging (City of LA)

5) HOV lanes

Now you don't want to pay a measly $100 per year to upgrade the millions of miles of roads in California that we use alongside our gas powered brothers and sisters?

Give it up!

That may be true but 99% of the people don't think that the above are enough to get them to try an EV or even a EREV. They keep pumping gasoline and saying : I'll get an EV when it will go 400 miles, recharge in 5 minutes, and costs less than my truck.
 
michael said:
SeanNelson said:
sgt1372 said:
"The roads need to be fixed but why should EV owners/lessees pay $100 -- $62 more than for an ICE vehicle? That makes no sense.
It's because ICE vehicles pay additional taxes for road maintenance when they buy gas, but EVs don't. The idea is that the taxes for road maintenance should be spread more fairly across both ICE and EV drivers.

Ultimately, the fairest way to do this would be to tax everyone, ICE and EVs alike, by miles traveled - factored perhaps by some combination of vehicle weight and perhaps number of axles. But tracking miles traveled has some technical and privacy issues that most governments don't want to wade into.
Miles travelled is trivial. Read the odometer. On star sends me an email every month telling the miles travelled. In the case of a lease tax the allowed miles even. What's the privacy issue in that??
I dunno, but some people seem to be upset about the idea.
 
SeanNelson said:
I dunno, but some people seem to be upset about the idea.

I dunno either. I've heard people complain about GPS trackers, but mileage alone, who cares?

And BTW, any car with On-star has a GPS tracker built in that you pretty much can't disable. So privacy is long-gone anyhow.


If you're having an affair, take a taxi, not your Bolt!!!!!!
 
Patronus said:
It sounds completely fair to me. WA has the same $100/year tax for EVs but, of course, no gas tax ($0.49/gallon).

It's $100 plus the extra a $50 multi modal tax for a total of $150 a year. Also don't forget the extra 18.4 cents a gallon in federal taxes. I encourage Washington state owners or electric cars to lobby their state representatives to send the money generated by the $50 multi modal tax to the WDOT grant and loan program for high voltage charging stations.

I would also encourage owners of electric vehicles to lobby their state representatives to apply any taxes paid for electricity to charge an electric vehicle to any yearly road tax paid by owners of electric vehicles.
 
marshallinwa said:
Patronus said:
It sounds completely fair to me. WA has the same $100/year tax for EVs but, of course, no gas tax ($0.49/gallon).

It's $100 plus the extra a $50 multi modal tax for a total of $150 a year. Also don't forget the extra 18.4 cents a gallon in federal taxes. I encourage Washington state owners or electric cars to lobby their state representatives to send the money generated by the $50 multi modal tax to the WDOT grant and loan program for high voltage charging stations.

I would also encourage owners of electric vehicles to lobby their state representatives to apply any taxes paid for electricity to charge an electric vehicle to any yearly road tax paid by owners of electric vehicles.


I've tried to make this same point too.

15,000 mile/year is about 4000 kWh. Here in Los Angeles, power is about 20 cents/kWh with a 10% utility tax added on top

So my EV usage pays about $80 a year in utility taxes that ICE drivers escape. They should pay their fair share!!!
 
michael said:
marshallinwa said:
Patronus said:
It sounds completely fair to me. WA has the same $100/year tax for EVs but, of course, no gas tax ($0.49/gallon).
So my EV usage pays about $80 a year in utility taxes that ICE drivers escape. They should pay their fair share!!!
You are mixing apples and oranges now...
That is to pay for the grid and local upkeep of utilities; NOT roadway infrastructructure!
 
Taxes are frangible. It all goes to the government and they spend it any way they decide to do so
 
"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society" - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

Any other dicta is just anarchy in sheep's clothing (or perhaps just greed!).
 
MichaelLAX said:
michael said:
marshallinwa said:
So my EV usage pays about $80 a year in utility taxes that ICE drivers escape. They should pay their fair share!!!
You are mixing apples and oranges now...
That is to pay for the grid and local upkeep of utilities; NOT roadway infrastructructure!
\


No, that's not correct. The rates pay for the cost of delivering the power to the house

Utility taxes are simply a tax added on because the government wants more money. The same utility taxes are applied to cell phone bills. Do you think they pay for cell towers?

You live in Los Angeles, judging from your handle. The LADWP rates you pay include all the infrastructure. The Utility taxes are just a way to get money.
 
michael said:
Taxes are frangible. It all goes to the government and they spend it any way they decide to do so
I think you mean "fungible". And even so, I expect that the idea behind the EV tax is that EV users shouldn't be able to "avoid" taxes that everyone else pays by not having to pay gas tax - even if those taxes simply go into general revenue.
 
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