Another positive review, this time from Kelley Blue Book

[SeanNelson]

Lol...whatever guys. Clearly it's not a logical debate here so I'll leave it at that.

If you would like a logical debate, please address the specific facts that SparkE listed. He gave a clear definition of the term "vaporware" and then showed how the Model III fits that definition. If you disagree, that's fine and good. You are entitled to. Please present your definition of vaporware, and explain why the Model III should not be labelled as such. That's how a logical debate should work.

Well, SparkE's definition was pulled verbatim right from Google search results. And it matches the current status of the Model 3 exactly. If JupiterMoon wants to try to redefine it then he's going to have to find a more authoritative source, IMHO.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Lol...whatever guys. Clearly it's not a logical debate here so I'll leave it at that.

If you would like a logical debate, please address the specific facts that SparkE listed. He gave a clear definition of the term "vaporware" and then showed how the Model III fits that definition. If you disagree, that's fine and good. You are entitled to. Please present your definition of vaporware, and explain why the Model III should not be labelled as such. That's how a logical debate should work.

The Model III is based off a car that already exists. It's not vaporware. If you want to define it that way, the Rimac Concept One was also "vaporware" for years except that it was real, being tested, being driven, and multiple units were made and were smoking every car they were put up against...even if they weren't in production and being sold.

Vaporware means it doesn't exist at all. Unless Tesla made some really fancy CGI graphics presentations and the test drives at Tesla's unveiling were all faked, the Model III isn't vaporware.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Vaporware means it doesn't exist at all.

Good, now we're getting somewhere. Unfortunately, this is "vaporware according to JupiterMoon". Please provide us with something - anything - which supports this definition.

Unless Tesla made some really fancy CGI graphics presentations and the test drives at Tesla's unveiling were all faked, the Model III isn't vaporware.

Even this conclusion is questionable. The production Model III was not unveiled nor test driven at the Tesla event. Those were prototypes which are (presumably) close to the production version. But all we know about the final design is that "pencils down" has been called. Or so Tesla claims. So they say the design is final. We have yet to see the final pieces (hopefully soon!). But even then, it's still a design and not a product.

None of this is to say that I don't believe the Model III is coming. I do. I may not personally have a deposit on one, but I fully intend to test drive both it and the Bolt before purchasing my next EV.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Vaporware means it doesn't exist at all.

Good, now we're getting somewhere. Unfortunately, this is "vaporware according to JupiterMoon". Please provide us with something - anything - which supports this definition.

Unless Tesla made some really fancy CGI graphics presentations and the test drives at Tesla's unveiling were all faked, the Model III isn't vaporware.

Even this conclusion is questionable. The production Model III was not unveiled nor test driven at the Tesla event. Those were prototypes which are (presumably) close to the production version. But all we know about the final design is that "pencils down" has been called. Or so Tesla claims. So they say the design is final. We have yet to see the final pieces (hopefully soon!). But even then, it's still a design and not a product.

None of this is to say that I don't believe the Model III is coming. I do. I may not personally have a deposit on one, but I fully intend to test drive both it and the Bolt before purchasing my next EV.

I know they were prototypes but it still exists. Tell Rimac their cars don't exist. Lol...come on.. Up until recently the Bolt didn't "exist" either then.

Tesla never claimed pencils down...as a matter of fact Musk stated that there would be changes still to be made.

I'm in the engineering field. Vaporware for me (and many of my colleagues) is something that does not physically exist or is a concept on a napkin.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm an engineer as well. So you should also realize that sometimes, despite what the marketing machine tells the world, the product ends up quite different.

And Tesla absolutely did claim "pencils down". Back in July.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...musk-says-its-pencils-down-for-teslas-model-3

 

[JupiterMoon]

I'm an engineer as well. So you should also realize that sometimes, despite what the marketing machine tells the world, the product ends up quite different.

And Tesla absolutely did claim "pencils down". Back in July.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...musk-says-its-pencils-down-for-teslas-model-3

Of course they may end up differently. That's why it's a prototype or pre-production product. But it's still real and not on a napkin.

This contradicts pencils down - apparently they are still making changes..probably mostly to the interior:

https://electrek.co/2016/12/08/tesla-model-3-new-picture-interior/

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Of course they may end up differently. That's why it's a prototype or pre-production product. But it's still real and not on a napkin.

I really don't know what argument you are trying to make here. I never said or implied that prototypes don't exist. Of course they were real prototypes - there were several ride-alongs (only Tesla personnel drove to my knowledge) and some published reviews of the event. But you still fail to acknowledge that I differentiate between the prototypes (which are real and functional) and the product (which is, to the best of our knowledge, still only a design). The same goes for Rimac.

Tesla never claimed pencils down...as a matter of fact Musk stated that there would be changes still to be made.

Whether or not they have abided by the claim, my point is that it was made, contrary to your statement.

 

[SparkE]

Lol...whatever guys. Clearly it's not a logical debate here so I'll leave it at that.

If you would like a logical debate, please address the specific facts that SparkE listed. He gave a clear definition of the term "vaporware" and then showed how the Model III fits that definition. If you disagree, that's fine and good. You are entitled to. Please present your definition of vaporware, and explain why the Model III should not be labelled as such. That's how a logical debate should work.

The Model III is based off a car that already exists. It's not vaporware. If you want to define it that way, the Rimac Concept One was also "vaporware" for years except that it was real, being tested, being driven, and multiple units were made and were smoking every car they were put up against...even if they weren't in production and being sold.

Vaporware means it doesn't exist at all. Unless Tesla made some really fancy CGI graphics presentations and the test drives at Tesla's unveiling were all faked, the Model III isn't vaporware.

Well it appears that you don't have the same definition of vaporware as everybody else. I imagine that's why you are having problems communicating your point of view - you have different definitions for words.

If it isn't for sale, then it's vaporware. If the exact details of the vehicle haven't been specified (like the Model 3, and the Nissan LEAF3 for that matter) than it is very nebulous vaporware. That doesn't mean it WON'T be sold, just that it doesn't exist yet 'in the real world'. And it is absolutely pointless to 'compare' with a vehicle whose details haven't been released yet (and pretty silly to argue if a vaporware car is 'better' or 'worse' than one that is offered for sale).

You know, the Elio E1c was unveiled at the LA auto show a few months ago. No, you couldn't drive it, but they were able to show hand-assembled plastics and metal frame! It had an engine in it. They are 'pencils down'. Now Elio has been burning through tens of millions for years and years, just 'a few months out' from shipping most of that time. Funny, that announcement was just in time for their application for federal loans to buy/build their assembly plant ... Gee, is the Elio motors vehicle (which has announced specs, has actually shown the car, has actually announced the price) vaporware? Of course it is. And simply because it isn't in production and can't be bought, not for any other reason.

The same applies to the ElectraMechanica SOLO, and the Arcimoto SRK (both of which *should* be for sale in the next 6 months, before the Model 3). They aren't for sale yet (although the SOLO *is* in production). The LEAF3 is also vaporware - the specs haven't been published (just like the Model 3), but also because it isn't in production and most importantly : it isn't offered for sale yet.

 

[Anonymous]

Tell you what.

When my Model 3 arrives (I'm a first day reservation holder and an existing Tesla owner) in 2018 here in Canada, I'll post back here with some "vapor" of my own, namely, with my review of how the the smell of tire smoke permeates the air as I launch it repeatedly and throw it around corners.

My Model S is an amazing technical achievement, and Tesla keeps improving it with every cool new software update.

The battery factory progress in Nevada certainly stops any arguments that Tesla isn't moving forward...

 

[SeanNelson]

The Model III is based off a car that already exists. It's not vaporware.

I refer you again to the definition of vaporware posted by SparkE, supplied by Google:

software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.

Note the phrase "not yet available to buy". The fact that there is a prototype is irrelevant to the discussion. If it can't be bought, then from the point of view of us, the car buying public, the product does not exist.

Until a product available for purchase, the company that produces it is free to say anything it wants. It can claim more performance than will actually be delivered, a lower price, more features, etc. etc. etc. Misleading claims about products in development have been used by such industry giants as McDonnell Douglas, IBM, and Microsoft. In the case of McDonnell Douglas their promised aircraft was called a "paper airplane", but since then the term "vapourware" was coined to point out that products in development may or may not be delivered as claimed. In fact in some cases they end up not being delivered at all.

I'm not suggesting that Tesla will not live up to its claims. It has to at least come close to what it's promising or face a huge hit to its credibility. But the reality is that until a customer can actually buy and drive a Model 3 we won't really know for sure many details such as price, performance, interior design and quality, etc. etc.

So the car fits the widely accepted definition of "vaporware" perfectly. If you don't accept that definition then that's really your problem, not everyone else's.

 

[SparkE]

Tell you what.

When my Model 3 arrives (I'm a first day reservation holder and an existing Tesla owner) in 2018 here in Canada, I'll post back here with some "vapor" of my own, namely, with my review of how the the smell of tire smoke permeates the air as I launch it repeatedly and throw it around corners.

My Model S is an amazing technical achievement, and Tesla keeps improving it with every cool new software update.

The battery factory progress in Nevada certainly stops any arguments that Tesla isn't moving forward...

I would *love* to hear about any long distance, new vehicle that actually exists- either now, or in 6 months or a year - whenever it is actually available (any new ~200-ish mile range EV). But I *don't* want to hear comparisons between cars which nobody knows what they will be like because the company hasn't even published full details on the model yet (that includes the LEAF and model 3, as well as others).

At this point, I'm actually getting tired of hearing about leases for the Bolt which are all speculation, what Trump might do (pure speculation) about tax credits or CARB regs, etc., etc. Personally, all I want to hear about are actual products, and people's impressions of an actual, production Bolt. (Not so bothered by the news of cars actually being shipped, but the speculation as to why some early builds haven't shipped to dealers/customers yet has also become tiresome at this point.) 'ifs' and 'maybes' aren't that interesting to me. My two cents.

If my aunt had a pair, we'd be calling her my uncle...

 

[GetOffYourGas]

At this point, I'm actually getting tired of hearing about leases for the Bolt which are all speculation, what Trump might do (pure speculation) about tax credits or CARB regs, etc., etc. Personally, all I want to hear about are actual products, and people's impressions of an actual, production Bolt. (Not so bothered by the news of cars actually being shipped, but the speculation as to why some early builds haven't shipped to dealers/customers yet has also become tiresome at this point.) 'ifs' and 'maybes' aren't that interesting to me. My two cents.

If my aunt had a pair, we'd be calling her my uncle...

I feel you but... up until about 2 days ago, even Bolts weren't yet delivered. What exactly did you expect to find on this forum? That's just the nature of the beast.

I joined the eGolf forum before the first unit shipped, and it was the same way. There is far less speculation / ifs / etc discussed on that forum now that there are actual products (with the questions and problems that come with it). Hang in there, the Bolt will get there very soon.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Tell you what.

When my Model 3 arrives (I'm a first day reservation holder and an existing Tesla owner) in 2018 here in Canada, I'll post back here with some "vapor" of my own, namely, with my review of how the the smell of tire smoke permeates the air as I launch it repeatedly and throw it around corners.

My Model S is an amazing technical achievement, and Tesla keeps improving it with every cool new software update.

The battery factory progress in Nevada certainly stops any arguments that Tesla isn't moving forward...

I would *love* to hear about any long distance, new vehicle that actually exists- either now, or in 6 months or a year - whenever it is actually available (any new ~200-ish mile range EV). But I *don't* want to hear comparisons between cars which nobody knows what they will be like because the company hasn't even published full details on the model yet (that includes the LEAF and model 3, as well as others).

At this point, I'm actually getting tired of hearing about leases for the Bolt which are all speculation, what Trump might do (pure speculation) about tax credits or CARB regs, etc., etc. Personally, all I want to hear about are actual products, and people's impressions of an actual, production Bolt. (Not so bothered by the news of cars actually being shipped, but the speculation as to why some early builds haven't shipped to dealers/customers yet has also become tiresome at this point.) 'ifs' and 'maybes' aren't that interesting to me. My two cents.

If my aunt had a pair, we'd be calling her my uncle...

Ok so let's just all be quiet and not talk to each other. How about that? lol

Life is one big maybe...it is how it is. Plus, speculations are usually based on knowledgeable estimation. For example, we all know what disaster Trump will be based on who he's picking for his cabinet. Unless by some miracle the idiots he's picked to run the EPA and SOS positions develop some sort of conscience and morals and do a 180.

 

[SeanNelson]

Ok so let's just all be quiet and not talk to each other. How about that? lol

I don't have a problem discussing future cars, I just have a problem treating them as if they're real, concrete products. For example, I've heard countless reports that claim the Bolt's 238-mile range beats the Model 3's 215-mile range. But that 215 mile range is just as nebulous as GM's original claims of "more than 200 miles" for the Bolt - so those kinds of proclamations are meaningless.

That's why the label "vaporware" is important - it reminds us that the products we're talking about are not fixed in stone.