EVgo DC chargers were horrible up until the beginning of 2018. They're still not perfect, but improvement is being made.

[BoltEV]

So is the current more sane EVgo pricing also the result of CA pressure ?

California PUC has no influence on the price structure.

New owner of EVgo and market competition is causing all EV charging to be more competitive.

These units will never be as cheap as home rates unless, like in Los Angeles, free units are subsidized by municipalities.

 

[summit]

These units will never be as cheap as home rates unless...

yes and no, it's relative. There are a number of variables to consider, but only if you are "obsessive", like yours truly.

1. Because the rate is per minute and the charge rate depends on the pack SOC. Typically, the charge rate is around 44 kw below 70-75% SOC. Let's use round numbers to keep it simple, say you start charging at 25% SOC for 30-min, which puts in roughly 22kwh. The current EVgo price of $0.20/min translates to $6/22kwh =~ $0.27/kwh

2. It also depends on your residence rate, whether you are on solar EV6, standard TOU rate, and the residence current tier bracket.

As an example, I am on EV6 rate, the summer off-peak tier 2 is $0.265 and winter tier 2 is $0.27; so essentially a wash. But if I consider that I am EVgo charging during peak rate hours (1pm-7pm), my residence tier 2 rate is $0.46/kwh

 

[SparkE]

Typically, the charge rate is around 44 kw below 70-75% SOC.

No. The Bolt's charge profile is :

* 150A until about 50% SoC (if available)
* about 105A between ~50% - ~70% SoC (if available)

If you are using a 100A ("50 kW") DCFC (EVgo has quite a few of these) you will charge between 34-ish and 38-ish kW up until 70% SoC, when the rate will drop when the car decides to pull fewer amps. (That's because the amps will remain constant while the battery pack voltage rises from around 335V to above 370V.)

If you are using a 125A (also called "50 kW") DCFC, then you will pull between 43 and 46 kW up until around 50% SoC, when the car decides to pull only about 105 amps, at which point the charge rate will drop down to about 38-39 kW until around 70% SoC, when it will drop to pulling 24kW (370V / 65A).

If you are using a 150A -or higher- DCFC (EVgo doesn't have many of these) then you will pull between 52 and 55 kW up until around 50% SoC, when the car decides to pull only about 105 amps, ...just like above ...

So, using a 125A charger up to around 50% SoC (not 70%), your cost numbers are fairly accurate. Using a 100A DCFC will cost more per kWh, 150A will cost less. (The Bolt won't ever pull more than 150A even if available).

So, if you use a 125A DCFC to go from about 10% to about 50% (22 kWh), it will take about 30 minutes, 30*0.2=$6 : 6/22= 27 cents/kWh.

If you use a 150A DCFC to go from about 10% to about 50% (22 kWh), it will take about 25 minutes, 25*0.2=$5 : 5/22= 23 cents/kWh.

IF you have a 125A EVgo unit reasonably placed, and if think you can easily and conveniently put 50 kWh into your Bolt at lower SoC, subscribing to EVgo might be a good way to go, as the per-minute charge is $0.15 when you subscribe - it costs $10/mo, but the first $10 (66 minutes) of fast charging is included.

If you use a 125A DCFC for 20 minutes when between 10% - 50% state of charge, 15 kWh, 20min @ .15= $3. If you do that 3 times a month (to use up the "free, included" DCFC minutes) you only pay about $0.20/kWh and still have the cheaper rate available for traveling. It's even less expensive (per kWh) if you have a 150A DCFC available.

 

[keijidosha]

Baker, Ca site now showing all 6 chargers active;

"Dec 13, 2018
Astrid and Niska are original 50kWh.
Chance and Ollie are new 100kWh.
Ivo and Janus are new 350kWh.
All are same $0.20/min but I expect that to change in future with 2019 cars that can actually take advantage of those ultrafast charging rates."

https://www.plugshare.com/location/157532

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Glad they are still expanding in CA. It seems like they've stopped building in the Northeast. Electrify America is the only one actually putting hardware in the ground around here.

 

[rcedwards]

Used EVgo for my new Chevy Bolt for this first time at the Tacoma Mall in Washington.

Charged from 40% to 70% in 30 minutes. Cost $4.95 + 30 times $0.20. Or about $10.95 for 18KW.

Not very useful. Will avoid in the future.

 

[jasony]

Why the connection fee? Did you not delete the old plan and add the new pay as you go plan?

 

[rcedwards]

Thanks jasony, you are right.

Apparently I was using an obsolete plan (Flex).

I've updated to the newer pay as you go plan. It allows for 45-minutes of charging and no connection fee. This makes EVgo more attractive.

The Chevy Bolt allows for 150 amps of DC. The EVgo screen reported 110 amps maximum at 40% SOC. I'm not sure if this was a limitation of the charger, or if it was limited because there was a BMW I3 using DCFC on the adjacent charger.

In any case, the Bolt is an excellent vehicle. It is better in every way than my former 2013 Nissan LEAF.

The Bolt has so much range that I don't need DCFC, I was merely testing it while the car is under warranty.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I have yet to see an EVGo charger that supplies more than 120A. Most supply 100A. More powerful ones are rare although supposedly they are coming.

 

[BoltEV]

Keyes Chevy ("Keyes, Keyes, Keyes: Keyes on Van Nuys" sung to the tune of the Beach Boys: Barbara Ann! hahahaha) had a super-duper DCFC that I was pretty sure met the advertised claim of 90 miles in 30 minutes.

I used it often (fresh baked cookies and coffee in the waiting room) but before I got a chance to test out that claim, it went belly up.

The dealer claimed they could not get parts from Korea and replaced it with a boring 50 KWh one.

 

[JeffN]

The Chevy Bolt allows for 150 amps of DC. The EVgo screen reported 110 amps maximum at 40% SOC. I'm not sure if this was a limitation of the charger, or if it was limited because there was a BMW I3 using DCFC on the adjacent charger.

My guess is that 110A was due to cooler winter temperatures.

For details see my article at:

Frigidity and the challenge of high-power coupling
https://electricrevs.com/2018/10/23/frigidity-and-the-challenge-of-high-power-coupling/

 

[JeffN]

Baker, Ca site now showing all 6 chargers active;

"Dec 13, 2018
Astrid and Niska are original 50kWh.
Chance and Ollie are new 100kWh.
Ivo and Janus are new 350kWh.
All are same $0.20/min but I expect that to change in future with 2019 cars that can actually take advantage of those ultrafast charging rates."

https://www.plugshare.com/location/157532

Slight update:

Change and Ollie are 150 kW
Ivo is 175 kW and Janus is 350 kW

 

[SparkE]

And "kW" is very deceiving - what is really important is Amps.

Rating a DCFC charger as "120 kW" because it can provide 100A at 1200V really doesn't indicate how useful it is. A Bolt (and most EVs) would pull a max of about ... 100A out of it, around 33-38 kW.

A Charger rated at "50 kW" because it can provide up to 125A at 400V is much more useful to almost every EV driver.

A Charger rated at "100 kW" because it can provide up to 200A at 500V is super useful to almost every EV driver - it could pretty much provide more than the max charging rate of almost every (non-Tesla) EV on the road today ... yet it is "only" 100 kW.

The "150 kW" DCFCs that we are seeing start to pop up in the US are "somewhere around" 150-200A, "up to 900-1000V", with a max delivery of 150 kW. In other words, able to provide max charge (in Amps) to CCS and CHAdeMO -equiped EVs driving around the US today.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The "150 kW" DCFCs that we are seeing start to pop up in the US are "somewhere around" 150-200A, "up to 900-1000V", with a max delivery of 150 kW. In other words, able to provide max charge (in Amps) to CCS and CHAdeMO -equiped EVs driving around the US today.

Wow, is this true? I had just assumed they were something like 300A at 500V, which would seem far more useful overall than, say, 150A at 1000V.

 

[SparkE]

The "150 kW" DCFCs that we are seeing start to pop up in the US are "somewhere around" 150-200A, "up to 900-1000V", with a max delivery of 150 kW. In other words, able to provide max charge (in Amps) to CCS and CHAdeMO -equiped EVs driving around the US today.

Wow, is this true? I had just assumed they were something like 300A at 500V, which would seem far more useful overall than, say, 150A at 1000V.

The "120 kW, 100A at 1200V" was hyperbole (a gross exaggeration) on my part to illustrate the point ("kW" rating often being a joke - actual max amps being a better measure). There are both 100A and 125A "50 kW" DCFCs out there, and they do NOT charge a Bolt at the same speed.

The actual specs depend on the vendor (obviously). For example:

The "150" kW ABB units that EVgo is deploying are "max 350A" and 200-920V (limit of 150 kW). The 350 kW ABB units are "max 400A" at 150-920V. (IMO, ONE 350 kW unit every 100 miles along interstates is sufficient.) {ABB's spec sheet lists "175 kW" DCFCs, while the plaque on the side of the "prototype" units installed by EVgo say "150 kW".)

The 200 kW BTC Power units that Recargo install in Salinas are max 250A @ 1000V, and max 500A @ 500V (or so their spec sheet says). (And their specs for their 100 kW unit list 126A @1000V and 250A@500V.) So, frankly, I'm wondering why ANYBODY is installing multiple 200 kW units in any install, instead of a single one (which costs more per minute) and 1-5 others which are the 100 kW units (unless they are very similar in price, so why not).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The "150 kW" DCFCs that we are seeing start to pop up in the US are "somewhere around" 150-200A, "up to 900-1000V", with a max delivery of 150 kW. In other words, able to provide max charge (in Amps) to CCS and CHAdeMO -equiped EVs driving around the US today.

Wow, is this true? I had just assumed they were something like 300A at 500V, which would seem far more useful overall than, say, 150A at 1000V.

The "120 kW, 100A at 1200V" was hyperbole (a gross exaggeration) on my part to illustrate the point ("kW" rating often being a joke - actual max amps being a better measure). There are both 100A and 125A "50 kW" DCFCs out there, and they do NOT charge a Bolt at the same speed.

The actual specs depend on the vendor (obviously). For example:

The "150" kW ABB units that EVgo is deploying are "max 350A" and 200-920V (limit of 150 kW). The 350 kW ABB units are "max 400A" at 150-920V. (IMO, ONE 350 kW unit every 100 miles along interstates is sufficient.) {ABB's spec sheet lists "175 kW" DCFCs, while the plaque on the side of the "prototype" units installed by EVgo say "150 kW".)

The 200 kW BTC Power units that Recargo install in Salinas are max 250A @ 1000V, and max 500A @ 500V (or so their spec sheet says). (And their specs for their 100 kW unit list 126A @1000V and 250A@500V.) So, frankly, I'm wondering why ANYBODY is installing multiple 200 kW units in any install, instead of a single one (which costs more per minute) and 1-5 others which are the 100 kW units (unless they are very similar in price, so why not).

Now you are contradicting yourself. Initially you claimed that "The "150 kW" DCFCs that we are seeing start to pop up in the US are "somewhere around" 150-200A, "up to 900-1000V" ", as I quoted. I understand that your 100A/1200V was hyperbole, that's why I only quoted what I did.

But not you are saying they aren't 150-200A, but rather 250-400A. As you know, that's a huge difference. In fact, that's the crux of your argument - that amperage matters, not wattage.

So which are they?

P.S. I've contacted PlugShare a few times and requested an official way to list the amperage of each charger (with L2 it matters as well). The response said that it was a common request and they are "looking into it". That was months ago. So far, nothing has changed.

 

[Pigwich]

This covers everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

CCS1 does 200 amps, CCS2 does 500 amps, how they balance the voltage out in that equation will be entirely up to the power supply designer, they'll either max out at a number of amps, or a max grand total power.

Also, doesn't matter, the bus bars in the Bolt's battery won't handle any more amperage by the looks of them, but maybe one day they'll have 800V Bolts? Just a matter of a new battery, new air conditioner, new inverter, new charger, new motor, new heater, new DC-DC converter........

 

[SparkE]

Concerning "DCFC kW may not be 'very useful' information" ...

I hadn't looked in a long time, (the older units listing "max kW" based on unreasonable voltages of 500V, such as 50kW because it can provide a max of 100A at 500V) and I was surprised at the published specs for the newest DCFC units being installed.

For example, the last one I really paid attention to was the ChargePoint "Express 250", it is listed as "max 156A, 200–1,000V DC" . It turns out that the max power is 62.5 kW, not 156kW (156A x 1000V) - which works out to 156A around 400V (which is a reasonable V for today's cars). The "proto" ABB "150 kW" DCFC in Fremont, CA will supposedly offer a max of 350A (which I find very hard to believe, as the cables don't seem to be liquid cooled) up to 920V. Realistically, battery packs these days run up to 370-375V (approx), so it's really a "130 kW" unit (and if it can only supply 200A, it's a 75 kW unit).

In fact, 250A at 400V (100 kW) is pretty much more than any (non-Tesla) car being sold today can pull. There are some cars that will pull 200A, but not many (if any) that will pull more than that. Now, since no (non-Tesla) EV today will pull over 200A, the "150 kW" (75 kW) unit in Fremont is just fine for every one driving around now - OR in the near future (2 years). Honestly, I don't understand why anybody is paying to install anything that will deliver over 175-200A (unless the prices for "twice the power" are pretty close to the 200A units). I understand "future proofing", but I think that it would be a better idea to install twice the number (say, 4 instead of 2) of DCFCs that can deliver up to 200A (with thinner cables), and a transformer/power drop that can handle all of them. Trench/install ONE of the units with the cables necessary to supply "300 kW", and *IF* those mythical unicorns of super-fast charging cars ever get built and sold, go back in 4 years and swap out ONE of the units for a higher power one (that allows power-sharing, so it can pull a max of 350A, but the other {paired} unit can only pull 100A when the other is at full power, but will ramp back up to 200A as the demand on the other ramps down.)

Again, if the unit prices are similar (only 10 or 15% more) you might as well install ONE 250 kW (350A) unit, maybe ONE 150kW (250A) unit, and all the rest 80 kW (175A) units. So a max of one out of 4 or 6 will be the higher power units. And/or, only have the 250A+ units every other station (150 miles apart).

Ah well, enough rambles for this afternoon.

 

[SparkE]

EVgo has just turned on FOUR new "80 kW" (200A) DCFC units near downtown San Jose. They replaced the old "50 kW" (125A) units with four brand-spanking-new 200A units - that do load-sharing! (If a Porche charges at 200A/800V, the other "paired one" won't get but a dribble of power until the Porche starts tapering down it's load.)

Whole Foods
777 The Alameda, San Jose

This is right near the Sharks' hockey rink, and San Jose's Diridon train station.

This is the sort of setup that is useful to every (non-Tesla) EV driving around today, or for the near future. Max charging rate for the vast majority of EVs sold through 2021-22, using "conventional" cabling (not liquid-cooled) and with load-sharing between dual units for those cars that will charge at over 500V. This is the sort of setup (4 "fast-ish" units) that would be great to see popping up about 10-40 miles outside of metro areas along travel routes (Bakersfield, SLO, Santa Barbara, Redding, Barstow, Needles, Blyth, Fresno, Sacramento (x4 major arteries), Santa Rosa, Eureka.

 

[JeffN]

I’ve got an article on the upgraded San Jose EVgo site:

https://electricrevs.com/2019/01/20/evgo-opens-first-upgraded-200a-charging-site-in-san-jose/