Bolt EV gripes

[GetOffYourGas]

Tesla does provide two gearing ratios, just not in the conventional way. On the "D" cars, the two motors are geared differently. They apparently effectively "shut off" (i.e. provides no propulsion power) the lower geared motor when cruising on the highway. This is how the D gets a better range with the same size battery.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Looking quickly through the thread, did anyone mention the lack of a simple two-speed manual transmission. Not for performance, but to drop the rpms by 25% & gain 10+% more range while on the highway. On other forums & threads, people mention the difficulty of matching rpms for an electric motor. Well, they have rev-matching tech for the big horsepower ICE vehicles. Just give me a simple 2-speed manual tranny. I want my 10% range extension. Was' da matta!

Interesting that you cite this as a shortcoming.

Volt actually accomplishes this in effect, using the two motors and a planetary gearset to add RPMs, allowing each to run slower. And it does work to improve efficiency at high speed. But...

EV purists (and the Tesla crowd especially) deride this as "unnecessarily complex" "bound to breakdown" "mickey mouse". True believers think that a single speed electric solution is vastly better.

And in fact I'm sure Chevy considered this as an option and concluded a single speed arrangement was the best compromise. Unlike Tesla they actually have experience with a dual speed setup. I assume they geared the car for good efficiency at normally expected cruising speeds and still had an excess of torque available at low speeds.

I can assure you that if the Bolt had provided a dual speed transmission, there would be raging posts on all the other forums condemning Chevy for falling back on old technology from the ICE age.

I think EVs will end up either with a CVT transmission or a dual clutch. EVs really only need two gears to maintain their efficiencies throughout a vast speed range. Not to mention the performance. The only reason why EV's fail to outaccelerate ICEs at top end or higher speeds is their gearing.

Rimac has shown already what an EV with multiple gears can do. It smokes everything it goes up against.

Interestingly, I personally verified the other day that my Spark EV has no problem whatsoever with keeping up (and at certain speeds) outpacing a nice new GTI. I was surprised but not as surprised as the clown driving the GTI lol. One more gear in my car and it'd have been embarrassing. This little EV hauls mid-range like crazy!

 

[Michael1]

I think EVs will end up either with a CVT transmission or a dual clutch. EVs really only need two gears to maintain their efficiencies throughout a vast speed range. Not to mention the performance. The only reason why EV's fail to outaccelerate ICEs at top end or higher speeds is their gearing.

No, their electric motors don't have enough horsepower.

 

[JupiterMoon]

I think EVs will end up either with a CVT transmission or a dual clutch. EVs really only need two gears to maintain their efficiencies throughout a vast speed range. Not to mention the performance. The only reason why EV's fail to outaccelerate ICEs at top end or higher speeds is their gearing.

No, their electric motors don't have enough horsepower.

Rubbish.

 

[devbolt]

I can possibly see a multiple gearbox setup for racing EVs, but it seems simpler to use a slightly larger and more efficient electric motor to get that extra bit of performance that you might want in a normal everyday use EV. Also a lot cheaper and way less complicated. One less thing to worry about breaking. The Bolt goes from 0 to 60 in less than 7 seconds. That's plenty fast by most people's standards. Anything beyond that and it just becomes a measuring contest that has little real world usefulness.

 

[JupiterMoon]

I can possibly see a multiple gearbox setup for racing EVs, but it seems simpler to use a slightly larger and more efficient electric motor to get that extra bit of performance that you might want in a normal everyday use EV. Also a lot cheaper and way less complicated. One less thing to worry about breaking. The Bolt goes from 0 to 60 in less than 7 seconds. That's plenty fast by most people's standards. Anything beyond that and it just becomes a measuring contest that has little real world usefulness.

So long as its quicker than my Spark EV I'm good. That thing has incredible mid-range performance due to tall gearing. It doesn't fall on its face after 60 for example...which comes in really handy on the freeways.

 

[Michael1]

I think EVs will end up either with a CVT transmission or a dual clutch. EVs really only need two gears to maintain their efficiencies throughout a vast speed range. Not to mention the performance. The only reason why EV's fail to outaccelerate ICEs at top end or higher speeds is their gearing.

No, their electric motors don't have enough horsepower.

Rubbish.

OK, Einstein. I'm glad you have rewritten Newton's Laws of Physics.

The car doesn't car what propulsion system it has. The performance is determined by the power source horsepower transmitted to the drive wheels.

 

[JupiterMoon]

No, their electric motors don't have enough horsepower.

Rubbish.

OK, Einstein. I'm glad you have rewritten Newton's Laws of Physics.

The car doesn't car what propulsion system it has. The performance is determined by the power source horsepower transmitted to the drive wheels.

Yes exactly...which is precisely why what you said was complete rubbish. Power is power...delivery of it is what matters. Basic physics actually you don't even need to be Einstein to understand that.

 

[Michael1]

Rubbish.

OK, Einstein. I'm glad you have rewritten Newton's Laws of Physics.

The car doesn't car what propulsion system it has. The performance is determined by the power source horsepower transmitted to the drive wheels.

Yes exactly...which is precisely why what you said was complete rubbish. Power is power...delivery of it is what matters. Basic physics actually you don't even need to be Einstein to understand that.

Now you are going to put in "delivery". Gears, axle shafts, and tires, sounds like about the same delivery.

Other than the higher end Teslas, which have a lot of horsepower, I can go out an buy a $35,000 455 horsepower Camaro SS, and it will beat every electric out there, and I don't care how many gears they put in them. They don't have anywhere near the horsepower.

If you want to believe that your Nissan Leaf or whatever little electric car you are driving will beat all the ICE cars, I guess it doesn't hurt anything. Enjoy the fantasy.

 

[JupiterMoon]

OK, Einstein. I'm glad you have rewritten Newton's Laws of Physics.

The car doesn't car what propulsion system it has. The performance is determined by the power source horsepower transmitted to the drive wheels.

Yes exactly...which is precisely why what you said was complete rubbish. Power is power...delivery of it is what matters. Basic physics actually you don't even need to be Einstein to understand that.

Now you are going to put in "delivery". Gears, axle shafts, and tires, sounds like about the same delivery.

Other than the higher end Teslas, which have a lot of horsepower, I can go out an buy a $35,000 455 horsepower Camaro SS, and it will beat every electric out there, and I don't care how many gears they put in them. They don't have anywhere near the horsepower.

If you want to believe that your Nissan Leaf or whatever little electric car you are driving will beat all the ICE cars, I guess it doesn't hurt anything. Enjoy the fantasy.

So you created an argument in your head, argued with yourself, created false statements that weren't made, and won your own argument? Yeah I guess it does hurt anything...your fantasy is strong for sure. You looked at an apple and you turned it into a pineapple lol...well done.

And yeah...delivery is very important...anyone who has even a basic grasp of physics will understand that gearing makes a huge difference in how a car performances. I don't think you've grasped a single thing that's been said.

 

[Michael1]

OK, it's the "delivery".

Put the pipe down.

 

[JupiterMoon]

OK, it's the "delivery".

Put the pipe down.

No wonder a 750+ HP Tesla gets pulled on at higher speeds than a car with 2/3rds it's power...yeah its the HP.

Grab a physics book.

 

[devbolt]

Lots of things have an affect on a car's ability to go from 0-60: HP, torque, weight of the car, tires, driver, wind resistance, road surface, etc. Does it really matter whether the Bolt or a base Tesla can beat a Camaro? Or whether a 2 or 3 gear transmission would really improve that 0-60 number? You reach a point of diminishing returns where the engineering and part cost to put in a transmission isn't worth it because the improvement in performance is negligible.

One of the compelling features behind an EV is that you don't have a heavy complicated transmission to deal with. You can achieve the same results by using a smaller more efficient AC electric motor that provide maximum torque from the word go and doesn't only achieve max HP or torque in a narrow RPM band. The whole reason you need a transmission in ICE vehicles is to keep the ICE running in that narrow efficiency/power band.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Lots of things have an affect on a car's ability to go from 0-60: HP, torque, weight of the car, tires, driver, wind resistance, road surface, etc. Does it really matter whether the Bolt or a base Tesla can beat a Camaro? Or whether a 2 or 3 gear transmission would really improve that 0-60 number? You reach a point of diminishing returns where the engineering and part cost to put in a transmission isn't worth it because the improvement in performance is negligible.

One of the compelling features behind an EV is that you don't have a heavy complicated transmission to deal with. You can achieve the same results by using a smaller more efficient AC electric motor that provide maximum torque from the word go and doesn't only achieve max HP or torque in a narrow RPM band. The whole reason you need a transmission in ICE vehicles is to keep the ICE running in that narrow efficiency/power band.

I agree 100%. Everything you say there is correct and highlights the advantages EVs have over regular cars given everything else being equal.

However my point is that if you want to really use the electric motor's potential over a wider range of speeds, gearing is necessary not only for performance but also for efficiency. The flexibility of electric motors is astonishing. For example, my Spark EV's gearing is equivalent to driving around a regular car in 4th gear all the time. It's no wonder the mid-range performance of this car is so good and holds its own against cars with 70, 80, 90 HP more. But the single gear also is the Achilles heel of EVs after a certain speed range where their power delivery falls off rapidly and isn't effective any more.

 

[devbolt]

Lots of things have an affect on a car's ability to go from 0-60: HP, torque, weight of the car, tires, driver, wind resistance, road surface, etc. Does it really matter whether the Bolt or a base Tesla can beat a Camaro? Or whether a 2 or 3 gear transmission would really improve that 0-60 number? You reach a point of diminishing returns where the engineering and part cost to put in a transmission isn't worth it because the improvement in performance is negligible.

One of the compelling features behind an EV is that you don't have a heavy complicated transmission to deal with. You can achieve the same results by using a smaller more efficient AC electric motor that provide maximum torque from the word go and doesn't only achieve max HP or torque in a narrow RPM band. The whole reason you need a transmission in ICE vehicles is to keep the ICE running in that narrow efficiency/power band.

I agree 100%. Everything you say there is correct and highlights the advantages EVs have over regular cars given everything else being equal.

However my point is that if you want to really use the electric motor's potential over a wider range of speeds, gearing is necessary not only for performance but also for efficiency. The flexibility of electric motors is astonishing. For example, my Spark EV's gearing is equivalent to driving around a regular car in 4th gear all the time. It's no wonder the mid-range performance of this car is so good and holds its own against cars with 70, 80, 90 HP more. But the single gear also is the Achilles heel of EVs after a certain speed range where their power delivery falls off rapidly and isn't effective any more.

From what I've read, horsepower remains more or less constant throughout an electric motor's RPM range. It's the torque that drops off as RPMs go up. However, the efficiency of the electric motor is what increases or stays the same as RPMs increase. Drop the RPMs too much and the car is woefully inefficient. Sure, you get extra torque, but what sort of extra performance are you trying to wring out of the car? 45-65 passing times that are sub 2-seconds? Again, point of diminishing returns in terms of performance gains. How often will you really need that extra power that isn't currently available? Is it worth the extra cost and complexity when you've got an electric motor that already can operate fairly efficiently over a wider RPM range than a comparable ICE?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

EVs, like any car, involve trade-offs. This discussion seems to have devolved into an argument over which design decisions should have been made for the Bolt. All in all, the Bolt is a great package. Could it be faster? Probably. More efficient? Sure. And I hope that GM takes the Bolt platform and creates these options and more with it.

Has anybody noticed that the majority of affordable EV offerings are tall hatchbacks? Bolt, Leaf, Fit EV, Soul EV, eGolf, Mercedes, ... How about simply offering more body styles? Maybe a mid-sized SUV like the Equinox. Or a more traditional family sedan like the Malibu. I, for one, would love a 2-door sports coupe version, like the fictional "Jolt" http://www.chevyjoltev.com/, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

 

[Michael1]

OK, it's the "delivery".

Put the pipe down.

No wonder a 750+ HP Tesla gets pulled on at higher speeds than a car with 2/3rds it's power...yeah its the HP.

Grab a physics book.

More exaggeration.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...r-owners-in-norway-as-speed-not-insane-enough

Congratulations. You are the first person to be added to my block list. Don't bother responding. I won't see it.

 

[JupiterMoon]

As if I really care what you think Michael1...lol. Just don't be so butthurt because you're wrong....have a nice day

 

[JupiterMoon]

EVs, like any car, involve trade-offs. This discussion seems to have devolved into an argument over which design decisions should have been made for the Bolt. All in all, the Bolt is a great package. Could it be faster? Probably. More efficient? Sure. And I hope that GM takes the Bolt platform and creates these options and more with it.

Has anybody noticed that the majority of affordable EV offerings are tall hatchbacks? Bolt, Leaf, Fit EV, Soul EV, eGolf, Mercedes, ... How about simply offering more body styles? Maybe a mid-sized SUV like the Equinox. Or a more traditional family sedan like the Malibu. I, for one, would love a 2-door sports coupe version, like the fictional "Jolt" http://www.chevyjoltev.com/, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Yes true EVs are a tradeoff currently...but as technology develops that tradeoff will become an advantage.

My point merely was that currently the performance Achilles heel of EVs is a single transmission. It is a strength as well as a weakness...depending what speed range you are speaking of. Clearly "some" people here have absolutely no clue of basic physics and just like to ramble for the same of rambling and being hostile because they'd rather thump chests than have a debate...probably because they know they are wrong. But that's another thread and frankly it doesn't matter.

I think as the tradeoffs lessen, you will begin to see more EVs in more sedan styles, etc....I think they are lumping practicality right now with functionality and the aesthetics has taken a back seat for the most part.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Lots of things have an affect on a car's ability to go from 0-60: HP, torque, weight of the car, tires, driver, wind resistance, road surface, etc. Does it really matter whether the Bolt or a base Tesla can beat a Camaro? Or whether a 2 or 3 gear transmission would really improve that 0-60 number? You reach a point of diminishing returns where the engineering and part cost to put in a transmission isn't worth it because the improvement in performance is negligible.

One of the compelling features behind an EV is that you don't have a heavy complicated transmission to deal with. You can achieve the same results by using a smaller more efficient AC electric motor that provide maximum torque from the word go and doesn't only achieve max HP or torque in a narrow RPM band. The whole reason you need a transmission in ICE vehicles is to keep the ICE running in that narrow efficiency/power band.

I agree 100%. Everything you say there is correct and highlights the advantages EVs have over regular cars given everything else being equal.

However my point is that if you want to really use the electric motor's potential over a wider range of speeds, gearing is necessary not only for performance but also for efficiency. The flexibility of electric motors is astonishing. For example, my Spark EV's gearing is equivalent to driving around a regular car in 4th gear all the time. It's no wonder the mid-range performance of this car is so good and holds its own against cars with 70, 80, 90 HP more. But the single gear also is the Achilles heel of EVs after a certain speed range where their power delivery falls off rapidly and isn't effective any more.

From what I've read, horsepower remains more or less constant throughout an electric motor's RPM range. It's the torque that drops off as RPMs go up. However, the efficiency of the electric motor is what increases or stays the same as RPMs increase. Drop the RPMs too much and the car is woefully inefficient. Sure, you get extra torque, but what sort of extra performance are you trying to wring out of the car? 45-65 passing times that are sub 2-seconds? Again, point of diminishing returns in terms of performance gains. How often will you really need that extra power that isn't currently available? Is it worth the extra cost and complexity when you've got an electric motor that already can operate fairly efficiently over a wider RPM range than a comparable ICE?

Well power is power but how it's delivered (i.e. gearing) is critical. There's is a reason why ICE vehicles with less HP than a Model S P100D out-accelerate it after 100 MPH...it's gearing. Compare that to a Rimac Concept One that actually has two gear ratios...allowing that think to continue to haul like crazy through top speed. Basic physics at work.

The argument about complexity is a different one. I was purely focusing on the aspect of gearing and how EVs pull far past their weight in performance given similar or less HP than comparable vehicles. It's quite idiotic and brainless to compare a 150HP EV to a 400 HP ICE vehicle. What goes through that person's brain to compare those two?