Chevy Bolt vs. Tesla Model 3: Elon Musk And GM Duel For Top Electric Car

[laev]

The Bolt's entry into the market could spell trouble for Tesla, which plans to release its first mid-price vehicle — the Model 3 — in July at an estimated starting price of $35,000 pre-tax. The company has stated that the average sales price would be closer to $42,000 before state and federal tax credits. Deliveries for the long-awaited Model 3 sedan for some buyers have already been pushed back to late 2017 or even 2018. Both the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3 were seen as competitors, vying to provide cheaper alternatives to other electric vehicles.

“What has been missing from the electric vehicle conversation is a car that is priced around the average of all cars,” said Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst at Autotrader told the Los Angeles Times. “The Bolt EV is intended to slot into that spot, as is the Tesla Model 3, though that remains some time away.”

GM's other rivals such as Nissan, Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW have also expressed interest in developing mid-market, all-electric vehicles with similar capabilities to that of the Bolt. However, the auto industry has struggled to generate significant interest in electric vehicles. Falling fuel prices and the reduction of tax incentives in some states have hindered consumer support for electric vehicles, which reportedly made up less than 1 percent of the nearly 18 million cars and light trucks expected to be sold in 2016.

Interesting video on this site

http://www.ibtimes.com/chevy-bolt-vs-tesla-model-3-elon-musk-gm-duel-top-electric-car-2460236?utm_source=internal&utm_campaign=incontent&utm_medium=related1

 

[GetOffYourGas]

However, the auto industry has struggled to generate significant interest in electric vehicles

I disagree. The auto industry has not struggled. They have not even tried. To this day, I get advertisements mailed to me from both Nissan and Ford. Neither ever even mentions they offer electric vehicles, let alone "struggle" to generate interest in them.

 

[michael]

I've seen more advertising from Chevy on the Bolt than I've seen on every other EV combined in my life. Billboards, radio ads, two page spread ads in Car and Driver. They are acting serious.

 

[ScooterCT]

Rumor has it these are the some of major players' current positions...

Tesla: We will sell and produce as many Model 3 cars as possible (hundreds of thousands per year) and make money. Oh, and we have reservations for 400,000+ already. Sure we have a long history of missing targets. But it'll be different this time. Trust us. Oh, and maybe buy a $60,000+ Model S while you're waiting? Want a solar roof with that? How about a suborbital joy ride?

GM: We have an electric platform ready for other bodies if and when we can actually make money on these electric things. But we're reportedly losing $9,000 on every Bolt sold. So we'll sell just enough (tens of thousands per year) to make a splash and get a lot good press and goodwill and emissions credits in ZEV states. Meanwhile, we'll rake it in with gas guzzling Yukons. Oh, and special thanks to all the greenies who bought Bolts for supporting our big profits on those Yukons. Or is it the other way around?

Ford: What's an electric car? Can we sell a half million of them a year at a profit? No? Call me when we can.

FCA: We'll sell them when NASCAR fans ask for them. Oh, and ours will come with artificial soot generators because our buyers love rolling coal.

VW: You stupid Americans forced us to jump into the future with those diesel penalties. So fine, we'll just deliver a whole family of amazing electric cars in 2020 and totally bury the American car industry. No really, you can believe us. We're German and we have godlike engineers and we never lie.

Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, etc: That annoying Elon Musk is stealing all our luxury customers. We'll get him in the end. We'll copy his car and put better leather seats in it. With a cool emblem. At double the price. Because it has an emblem.

Several electric startups: Hey, look at all the money Tesla got from investors for 5+ years while losing money the whole time. Investors are obviously greedy and dumb. Let's all announce fantastic electric cars, get lots of investor money, buy ourselves new boats and houses, and then dissolve outside the reach of US courts.

The average American consumer: Got a full size electric pickup that makes me look really macho as I inch along at 2 mph in rush hour traffic at 13 mpg? No? Well call me when you do. Oh, and can you make it taller and maybe give it a more intimidating, manly bumper?

 

[JupiterMoon]

Rumor has it these are the some of major players' current positions...

Tesla: We will sell and produce as many Model 3 cars as possible (hundreds of thousands per year) and make money. Oh, and we have reservations for 400,000+ already. Sure we have a long history of missing targets. But it'll be different this time. Trust us. Oh, and maybe buy a $60,000+ Model S while you're waiting? Want a solar roof with that? How about a suborbital joy ride?

GM: We have an electric platform ready for other bodies if and when we can actually make money on these electric things. But we're reportedly losing $9,000 on every Bolt sold. So we'll sell just enough (tens of thousands per year) to make a splash and get a lot good press and goodwill and emissions credits in ZEV states. Meanwhile, we'll rake it in with gas guzzling Yukons. Oh, and special thanks to all the greenies who bought Bolts for supporting our big profits on those Yukons. Or is it the other way around?

Ford: What's an electric car? Can we sell a half million of them a year at a profit? No? Call me when we can.

FCA: We'll sell them when NASCAR fans ask for them. Oh, and ours will come with artificial soot generators because our buyers love rolling coal.

VW: You stupid Americans forced us to jump into the future with those diesel penalties. So fine, we'll just deliver a whole family of amazing electric cars in 2020 and totally bury the American car industry. No really, you can believe us. We're German and we have godlike engineers and we never lie.

Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, etc: That annoying Elon Musk is stealing all our luxury customers. We'll get him in the end. We'll copy his car and put better leather seats in it. With a cool emblem. At double the price. Because it has an emblem.

Several electric startups: Hey, look at all the money Tesla got from investors for 5+ years while losing money the whole time. Investors are obviously greedy and dumb. Let's all announce fantastic electric cars, get lots of investor money, buy ourselves new boats and houses, and then dissolve outside the reach of US courts.

The average American consumer: Got a full size electric pickup that makes me look really macho as I inch along at 2 mph in rush hour traffic at 13 mpg? No? Well call me when you do. Oh, and can you make it taller and maybe give it a more intimidating, manly bumper?

Actually the $9000 loss GM claims on the Bolt is very misleading. They are losing money on not delivering enough EVs to offset the rest of their fleet emissions-wise. These are "green credits" costs and it has nothing to do with the loss on each vehicle. But they want to make it sound that way I imagine to make themselves look like they are good Samaritans or something like that.

 

[DucRider]

Actually the $9000 loss GM claims on the Bolt is very misleading. They are losing money on not delivering enough EVs to offset the rest of their fleet emissions-wise. These are "green credits" costs and it has nothing to do with the loss on each vehicle. But they want to make it sound that way I imagine to make themselves look like they are good Samaritans or something like that.

If a rumor is repeated often enough on the internet, it becomes a fact. :roll:

The only source for that $9K number is "according to a person familiar with the matter". It's not out of the realm of possibility that that person is Bob Lutz. Google his name and "Tesla", "EV", or"Prius" and you'll find his position is quite clear.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Actually the $9000 loss GM claims on the Bolt is very misleading. They are losing money on not delivering enough EVs to offset the rest of their fleet emissions-wise. These are "green credits" costs and it has nothing to do with the loss on each vehicle. But they want to make it sound that way I imagine to make themselves look like they are good Samaritans or something like that.

If a rumor is repeated often enough on the internet, it becomes a fact. :roll:

The only source for that $9K number is "according to a person familiar with the matter". It's not out of the realm of possibility that that person is Bob Lutz. Google his name and "Tesla", "EV", or"Prius" and you'll find his position is quite clear.

The rumor was that GM was losing money on each vehicle...not that they have to get green credits for the car. Who cares what Bob Lutz says anyway?

 

[oilerlord]

Rumor has it these are the some of major players' current positions...

Tesla: We will sell and produce as many Model 3 cars as possible (hundreds of thousands per year) and make money. Oh, and we have reservations for 400,000+ already. Sure we have a long history of missing targets. But it'll be different this time. Trust us. Oh, and maybe buy a $60,000+ Model S while you're waiting? Want a solar roof with that? How about a suborbital joy ride?

GM: We have an electric platform ready for other bodies if and when we can actually make money on these electric things. But we're reportedly losing $9,000 on every Bolt sold. So we'll sell just enough (tens of thousands per year) to make a splash and get a lot good press and goodwill and emissions credits in ZEV states. Meanwhile, we'll rake it in with gas guzzling Yukons. Oh, and special thanks to all the greenies who bought Bolts for supporting our big profits on those Yukons. Or is it the other way around?

Ford: What's an electric car? Can we sell a half million of them a year at a profit? No? Call me when we can.

FCA: We'll sell them when NASCAR fans ask for them. Oh, and ours will come with artificial soot generators because our buyers love rolling coal.

VW: You stupid Americans forced us to jump into the future with those diesel penalties. So fine, we'll just deliver a whole family of amazing electric cars in 2020 and totally bury the American car industry. No really, you can believe us. We're German and we have godlike engineers and we never lie.

Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, etc: That annoying Elon Musk is stealing all our luxury customers. We'll get him in the end. We'll copy his car and put better leather seats in it. With a cool emblem. At double the price. Because it has an emblem.

Scooter, I like the cut of your jib, sir. That's some good quality prose right there! Sometimes truth isn't stranger than fiction.

 

[oilerlord]

Actually the $9000 loss GM claims on the Bolt is very misleading. They are losing money on not delivering enough EVs to offset the rest of their fleet emissions-wise. These are "green credits" costs and it has nothing to do with the loss on each vehicle. But they want to make it sound that way I imagine to make themselves look like they are good Samaritans or something like that.

If a rumor is repeated often enough on the internet, it becomes a fact. :roll:

The only source for that $9K number is "according to a person familiar with the matter". It's not out of the realm of possibility that that person is Bob Lutz. Google his name and "Tesla", "EV", or"Prius" and you'll find his position is quite clear.

The rumor was that GM was losing money on each vehicle...not that they have to get green credits for the car. Who cares what Bob Lutz says anyway?

I've had this debate with Gary over and over again - he refuses to see the big picture. Sometimes, it's more about doing the right thing than making a profit. He sees reports of a $9K loss as a negative, when actually GM selling the car at a loss should be seen as a positive. They were the first to offer a 200 mile EV at under $40,000. That's a win for consumers and the environment, how is that a bad thing?

You only need to read a few of Tesla's 10Q earnings releases to understand how challenging it is to sell an EV at a profit. Nobody really knows if or how much GM is losing per Bolt, but if it is only $9K, my hat's off to the folks at GM for getting closer for EV's to have price parity with ICEV's, and having the cojones to move forward with the Bolt project even if it is a money loser for the company. Ford certainly doesn't have the stones to take on the Bolt or Model 3.

 

[JupiterMoon]

If a rumor is repeated often enough on the internet, it becomes a fact. :roll:

The only source for that $9K number is "according to a person familiar with the matter". It's not out of the realm of possibility that that person is Bob Lutz. Google his name and "Tesla", "EV", or"Prius" and you'll find his position is quite clear.

The rumor was that GM was losing money on each vehicle...not that they have to get green credits for the car. Who cares what Bob Lutz says anyway?

I've had this debate with Gary over and over again - he refuses to see the big picture. Sometimes, it's more about doing the right thing than making a profit. He sees reports of a $9K loss as a negative, when actually GM selling the car at a loss should be seen as a positive. They were the first to offer a 200 mile EV at under $40,000. That's a win for consumers and the environment, how is that a bad thing?

You only need to read a few of Tesla's 10Q earnings releases to understand how challenging it is to sell an EV at a profit. Nobody really knows if or how much GM is losing per Bolt, but if it is only $9K, my hat's off to the folks at GM for getting closer for EV's to have price parity with ICEV's, and having the cojones to move forward with the Bolt project even if it is a money loser for the company. Ford certainly doesn't have the stones to take on the Bolt or Model 3.

We're not debating what's bad or good. What is simply trying to be clarified here is the reason for the claimed $9000 "loss."

 

[DucRider]

I've had this debate with Gary over and over again - he refuses to see the big picture. Sometimes, it's more about doing the right thing than making a profit. He sees reports of a $9K loss as a negative, when actually GM selling the car at a loss should be seen as a positive.

I've never said that selling at a "loss" would be positive or negative - only that the reports were unsubstantiated and not credible. It's obviously fighting a losing battle.......

As I predicted in our earlier discussion, pure speculation has become a "fact" that has been picked up and reported in the mainstream media.

The quoted loss figure is being used by some media outlets to explain why it would be a bad decision to buy a Bolt - you're getting a car that will only be made in limited numbers and will have no long term support and be discontinued. GM has no interest in mass marketing the car and will make as few as they can to satisfy CARB requirements. It will be just like the EV1 and be crushed at the end of the lease.

Is the cost of Parts and Labor greater than the wholesale price GM gets? Possibly. Is it $9K? Unlikely - unless you believe the battery pack and drive unit costs GM $17K more than an ICE with emission controls, transmission/clutch, exhaust system, etc.
VW stated that a BEV would likely have about 20K parts vs the 30K on a typical ICE. 2/3rds the parts count is gonna save some money.

I'm "familiar with the matter" too......

 

[oilerlord]

I've never said that selling at a "loss" would be positive or negative - only that the reports were unsubstantiated and not credible. It's obviously fighting a losing battle.......

The quoted loss figure is being used by some media outlets to explain why it would be a bad decision to buy a Bolt - you're getting a car that will only be made in limited numbers and will have no long term support and be discontinued. GM has no interest in mass marketing the car and will make as few as they can to satisfy CARB requirements. It will be just like the EV1 and be crushed at the end of the lease.

To the contrary, you continue to do just that. You go way beyond questioning the credibility of the reported loss, you make an "unsubstantiated" supposition of your own. Read again what you just posted.

How do you make the leap from $9,000 loss per car to the Bolt's ultimate demise? I've read a number of articles from different media outlets about this reported loss, and none have claimed that it would be a bad decision to buy a Bolt. You're the one going there. Tesla lost a fortune on the Roadster, but still supports the car - in fact they recently announced a new battery pack upgrade for it. GM lost a boatload on Volt 1.0, but original owners can still get parts & service.

Here's a link to a Bloomberg story about the claimed $9,000 loss per car:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-30/gm-s-ready-to-lose-9-000-a-pop-and-chase-the-electric-car-boom

Please read the part that says the Bolt won't have long term support, is being discontinued, and ultimately crushed just like the EV-1.

 

[zappcatt]

We're not debating what's bad or good. What is simply trying to be clarified here is the reason for the claimed $9000 "loss."

Whoops, think I mangled that quote, sorry.

I would not be surprised if there was a COGS/transport/sales incentive loss of $9,000 on a base model Bolt, and if there were, it would still be a win for Chevy. Just the other day, the cost for the ZEV credits was stated to be $3.5K each(or so). That means, that the Bolt is worth $14K in non-direct profit to them, thus they come out ahead $4k on the cheapest model.

Since many are being ordered with Fast Charge(no way that costs Chevy 750) and the Premier upgrade, and the multiple packages which are not sold at cost, the profits on anything besides an economy LT would be even more.

Right now, the money for those credits are going directly to Tesla, and thus they are losing $14k on every Bolt they have not sold up to this date.

 

[JupiterMoon]

Whoops, think I mangled that quote, sorry.

I would not be surprised if there was a COGS/transport/sales incentive loss of $9,000 on a base model Bolt, and if there were, it would still be a win for Chevy. Just the other day, the cost for the ZEV credits was stated to be $3.5K each(or so). That means, that the Bolt is worth $14K in non-direct profit to them, thus they come out ahead $4k on the cheapest model.

Since many are being ordered with Fast Charge(no way that costs Chevy 750) and the Premier upgrade, and the multiple packages which are not sold at cost, the profits on anything besides an economy LT would be even more.

Right now, the money for those credits are going directly to Tesla, and thus they are losing $14k on every Bolt they have not sold up to this date.

Exactly. That's my point...it's a credits game not an actual loss on each car.