BMW themselves have admitted this and future BEV's will not use carbon fiber (at least to the extent the i3 does). When battery packs get to 60 kWh, shaving weight by using carbon fiber makes less sense. Picking up 5 miles of range on an EV with 75 miles of range is huge. Adding that 5 miles to one with 230 seems almost trivial.ssspinball said:
Chevy Bolt will have 238 miles of range, EPA says !!
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SparkE
Well-known member
Browsing Chevy's web site after the Bolt range news, I looked at this link : http://www.chevyevlife.com/bolt-ev-charging-locator/
A 'map' of charging stations, including DCFCs. GM is screwing the pooch with this, as SEVERAL fast chargers in my area that I know for a fact are CHAdeMO *only* (not even level-2!) sites are showing up on their map.
A 'map' of charging stations, including DCFCs. GM is screwing the pooch with this, as SEVERAL fast chargers in my area that I know for a fact are CHAdeMO *only* (not even level-2!) sites are showing up on their map.
My Spark EV is rated at 82 miles and 128 mpge and, except in the dead of winter, those are pretty honest numbers. Based on this real world experience over 2 1/2 years I see no reason to doubt the Bolt's numbers. (Of course, leadfooted bolters will see lower numbers)
oilerlord
Well-known member
SeanNelson said:
No, assuming the Bolt has a 60kWh battery, something doesn't add up. Clearly, the Bolt will easily exceed the EPA 238 mile rating as supported by this quote in a Car & Driver review:
"The results speak for themselves: After driving 238 miles, we arrived at our destination with the range estimator displaying 34 miles remaining. No complicated math was required to see that the Bolt clearly can far outperform Chevy’s initial estimate. Other drivers on the same route achieved varying numbers—one vehicle finished with a range indicator simply flashing Low rather than displaying a number—but each of the four Bolts on our drive completed the tall task."
http://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev
Even with the Bolt's moderate weight and less than optimal aerodynamics, the Car & Driver review suggested that the car may have been capable of up to 272 miles - and that on a highway drive. A Model S with a 70kWh battery has an EPA rating is 230 miles, but the Bolt is rated higher at 238. Perhaps the Bolt is going to ship with a 72kWh battery??
Devin
Active member
Somebody on Reddit found a screenshot showing 58.*kWh had been used with juice to spare - which may indicate that it is 60kWh usable capacity.
Also, keep in mind that Teslas and their derivatives (RAV4/B-Class) are the least efficient current-generation EVs. This being partly due to using AC motors if I recall.
Also, keep in mind that Teslas and their derivatives (RAV4/B-Class) are the least efficient current-generation EVs. This being partly due to using AC motors if I recall.
Just for the record, the EPA has NOT rated this car.
The manufacturer is responsible for conducting the tests (some contract it out) as defined by the EPA. The EPA audits about 15%-20% of car models to confirm accuracy. So GM is rating the Bolt at 238 miles on the EPA tests (not yet sure if they used the 2 or 5 cycle tests).
The manufacturer is responsible for conducting the tests (some contract it out) as defined by the EPA. The EPA audits about 15%-20% of car models to confirm accuracy. So GM is rating the Bolt at 238 miles on the EPA tests (not yet sure if they used the 2 or 5 cycle tests).
SeanNelson
Well-known member
Yes, it's quite possible that the "60KW battery" that GM has been touting is actually a 62 or 65KW battery and that 60KW is merely the usable amount after subtracting the discharge and overcharge buffers.Devin said:
It's also useful to bear in mind that with such a big battery the Bolt would not be expected to go to the fully discharged state very often. The Volt has a fairly large buffer because it's usage pattern calls for it to be completely "discharged" on a regular basis, but that won't be true with the Bolt. And in fact assuming more or less equivalent daily usage the average "discharge" level on the Bolt's battery will probably be a lot higher percentage of total capacity than it would be for shorter-range electric-only vehicles like the Leaf - or alternatively the number of charge/discharge cycles that the car would typically sustain in a year should be less since the average trip will use a smaller percentage of the Bolt's larger capacity. Those factors, combined with what we know is a slightly different battery chemistry may give GM the confidence to use a larger percentage of the Bolt battery's real capacity.
GetOffYourGas
Well-known member
oilerlord said:
To recap on efficiency: others have already pointed out two possible explanations - 1) the battery may actually be 60kWh usable, and 2) the manufacturers each test their own cars (so how do we know that BMW's equipment is calibrated identically to GM's? We don't - we just have to trust the auditing process).
I'd like to add one more variable to consider - charging efficiency. The MPGe figure includes charging losses as well as power train efficiency. My guess is that BMW uses a more efficient charger.
To illustrate this, let's consider a hypothetical situation. GM releases the Bolt in 2017. In 2018, the only change is to the charger - a more efficient one is used. All else is identical - battery, motor, etc. This 2018 Bolt would therefore get the same range from a full charge. However, it would have an improved MPGe figure.
Bottom line - you cannot look at MPGe, range, and battery size for two different cars and come up with an equation to match. You have to also consider the charger itself.
oilerlord said:
Well oilerlord the reason why it doesn't add up is your using the wrong number for the i3. Some EV manufacturers state the actual battery size. Other state the usable battery size . GM says the Bolt has a usable battery size of 60kwh. If you do some research the 2017 i3 has a usable size of 27.2 KWh.
If you double the size of the i3 battery the usable battery size would be 54.4 KWh. If you give the i3 a 60kwh usable battery the i3 would get close 260 miles on a charge.
While it appears from the test drives that the usable capacity is nearly 60 kWh, I've never seen any qualification from GM on whether the 60 kWh battery spec is total or usable. Can you provide the GM source that says it's 60 kWh usable?markbb99 said:
This review was done this morning with the real thing 
Chevy's new Bolt shows up in San Francisco's SOMA district at the height of rush hour. It comes around the corner evading cars, buses and wandering Giants' fans on their way to the game a few blocks away. It's urban chaos and it's the exact environment the long-range EV will encounter when new customers drive it out of the showroom sometime before the end of this year.
I drove the pre-pre-production Chevy Bolt at CES on a closed track way back in January. At the time it was difficult to get a true feel for the car, just driving in circles over and over again. Today's excursion was a bit more telling. I drove the EV through San Francisco's Potrero Hill and Mission Bay districts with a quick jaunt onto the freeway. And of course, the aforementioned traffic of SOMA.
Unsurprisingly, this version feels more polished than the model we drove in a parking lot a few blocks off the Strip. Not least because it's no longer wrapped in weird black stripes. The final design of the vehicle is much more like what you'd expect from a compact hatchback. It's not flashy, and it doesn't stick out like Chevy's plug-in hybrid the Volt does. Instead the Bolt blends into traffic with classic lines accented by a few flourishes like the chrome that runs above the doors. Basically it looks, well, normal.
Beyond its looks, the new Bolt's anything but normal. It's born out a desire to offer an electric car that doesn't break the bank, but is worthy of road trips. With a range of 238 miles, it bests the Tesla Model 3 (with a range of 215 miles) that's expected to start shipping sometime in late 2017. Josh Tavel, the Bolt's chief engineer told Engadget that during its research the company found that once an EV's range went above 200 miles, the amount of people that it doubled. If the car was under $30,000, that number doubled again. The Bolt is actually expected to cost below $37,500 at launch -- but with federal tax credits will land just on or below that $30,000 sweet spot.
To pull this off marriage or range and price, GM had to start from scratch. The automaker couldn't use one of its existing vehicle systems. "It's got to be a new dedicated vehicle platform to allow us to truly make a cost effective high mileage vehicle," Tavel said. While the hatchback borrows a few regenerative braking features from the Volt, it's otherwise completely unique in the GM lineup. Or it will be, once it's finally ready for market.
The nearly finished car I'm driving (Kelly says the car I'm driving is above 90% production) is a solid mixture of traditional compact car with the subdued whir of an EV. While it's not going to be winning any drag races, the zero to 60 time of just under seven seconds is about on par with a Honda Civic. The Bolt has the expected electric torque when you hit the accelerator, but it quickly gives way to the realities of a hatchback.
As for the ride, it's about on par with most compacts. The suspension is stiffer than the car I drove in Las Vegas. Of course, this time around I didn't get a chance to drive on a track or mountain roads, but I noted a slightly "sport" feel without sacrificing comfort.
That comfort factor extends to the interior, which is surprisingly stylish. The dash, for example, has a white accent that runs back into the doors -- I caught myself rubbing my fingers on it to feel its texture. The center console is a 10.5-inch touchscreen that has the usual information about how much energy you're using, complete with a scorecard of your driving. However, I was happy to see that the climate controls have good ole physical buttons. As you'd hope for a 2016 EV, the Bolt supports both CarPlay and Android Auto via USB ports and a not-so-handy phone holder that sits under the console. Chances are you'll just use the cupholder for your phone.
The dash cluster (aka where the speedometer lives) is easy to read, with every bar and accent tinted green. Probably to remind you that you're saving the planet in your electric car. More importantly, while it shares information about how you're using the battery, it doesn't feel cluttered.
This being a hatchback it's important to note that at first glance the trunk doesn't seem that huge. But you can remove the floor to reveal a giant hiding space for your gear. Also the back seats fold down flat so it's great for hauling all your stuff around town.
Of course getting around means charging. GM says with an 80kWh quick charger, you can add 90 miles in 30 minutes. With the 120 volt outlet in the average home, the car can be fully charged in 18 hours. A 240 volt outlet will halve that time. For comparison, the BMW i3 takes 20 hours to charge its 81-mile range battery with an 120 volt outlet. Fortunately the Bolt's extended range means you should be fine with the average commute and overnight charging. But it's always a good idea to research how many public charging stations are available in your area.
What GM built with the new Bolt is an impressive hatchback that happens to be an electric vehicle with an incredibly impressive 238-mile range. Not only will it make EV ownership more accessible, it gives the automaker a $30,000 (after federal tax credits) jump start into a market that's been dominated by Tesla's pricey Models S and X. It might not have Falcon Wing doors or semi-autonomous features but it does something those cars don't posses: the ability to be purchased by an average person this year.
https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/14/behind-the-wheel-of-gms-new-bolt/
Chevy's new Bolt shows up in San Francisco's SOMA district at the height of rush hour. It comes around the corner evading cars, buses and wandering Giants' fans on their way to the game a few blocks away. It's urban chaos and it's the exact environment the long-range EV will encounter when new customers drive it out of the showroom sometime before the end of this year.
I drove the pre-pre-production Chevy Bolt at CES on a closed track way back in January. At the time it was difficult to get a true feel for the car, just driving in circles over and over again. Today's excursion was a bit more telling. I drove the EV through San Francisco's Potrero Hill and Mission Bay districts with a quick jaunt onto the freeway. And of course, the aforementioned traffic of SOMA.
Unsurprisingly, this version feels more polished than the model we drove in a parking lot a few blocks off the Strip. Not least because it's no longer wrapped in weird black stripes. The final design of the vehicle is much more like what you'd expect from a compact hatchback. It's not flashy, and it doesn't stick out like Chevy's plug-in hybrid the Volt does. Instead the Bolt blends into traffic with classic lines accented by a few flourishes like the chrome that runs above the doors. Basically it looks, well, normal.
Beyond its looks, the new Bolt's anything but normal. It's born out a desire to offer an electric car that doesn't break the bank, but is worthy of road trips. With a range of 238 miles, it bests the Tesla Model 3 (with a range of 215 miles) that's expected to start shipping sometime in late 2017. Josh Tavel, the Bolt's chief engineer told Engadget that during its research the company found that once an EV's range went above 200 miles, the amount of people that it doubled. If the car was under $30,000, that number doubled again. The Bolt is actually expected to cost below $37,500 at launch -- but with federal tax credits will land just on or below that $30,000 sweet spot.
To pull this off marriage or range and price, GM had to start from scratch. The automaker couldn't use one of its existing vehicle systems. "It's got to be a new dedicated vehicle platform to allow us to truly make a cost effective high mileage vehicle," Tavel said. While the hatchback borrows a few regenerative braking features from the Volt, it's otherwise completely unique in the GM lineup. Or it will be, once it's finally ready for market.
The nearly finished car I'm driving (Kelly says the car I'm driving is above 90% production) is a solid mixture of traditional compact car with the subdued whir of an EV. While it's not going to be winning any drag races, the zero to 60 time of just under seven seconds is about on par with a Honda Civic. The Bolt has the expected electric torque when you hit the accelerator, but it quickly gives way to the realities of a hatchback.
As for the ride, it's about on par with most compacts. The suspension is stiffer than the car I drove in Las Vegas. Of course, this time around I didn't get a chance to drive on a track or mountain roads, but I noted a slightly "sport" feel without sacrificing comfort.
That comfort factor extends to the interior, which is surprisingly stylish. The dash, for example, has a white accent that runs back into the doors -- I caught myself rubbing my fingers on it to feel its texture. The center console is a 10.5-inch touchscreen that has the usual information about how much energy you're using, complete with a scorecard of your driving. However, I was happy to see that the climate controls have good ole physical buttons. As you'd hope for a 2016 EV, the Bolt supports both CarPlay and Android Auto via USB ports and a not-so-handy phone holder that sits under the console. Chances are you'll just use the cupholder for your phone.
The dash cluster (aka where the speedometer lives) is easy to read, with every bar and accent tinted green. Probably to remind you that you're saving the planet in your electric car. More importantly, while it shares information about how you're using the battery, it doesn't feel cluttered.
This being a hatchback it's important to note that at first glance the trunk doesn't seem that huge. But you can remove the floor to reveal a giant hiding space for your gear. Also the back seats fold down flat so it's great for hauling all your stuff around town.
Of course getting around means charging. GM says with an 80kWh quick charger, you can add 90 miles in 30 minutes. With the 120 volt outlet in the average home, the car can be fully charged in 18 hours. A 240 volt outlet will halve that time. For comparison, the BMW i3 takes 20 hours to charge its 81-mile range battery with an 120 volt outlet. Fortunately the Bolt's extended range means you should be fine with the average commute and overnight charging. But it's always a good idea to research how many public charging stations are available in your area.
What GM built with the new Bolt is an impressive hatchback that happens to be an electric vehicle with an incredibly impressive 238-mile range. Not only will it make EV ownership more accessible, it gives the automaker a $30,000 (after federal tax credits) jump start into a market that's been dominated by Tesla's pricey Models S and X. It might not have Falcon Wing doors or semi-autonomous features but it does something those cars don't posses: the ability to be purchased by an average person this year.
https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/14/behind-the-wheel-of-gms-new-bolt/
You are correct they don't directly say that. On the gm bolt website the use the term "energy capacity of 60 kWh" to describe the battery. I interpret that to mean useable Capacity. I may be wrong but along with reports of 58 kw used during a trip and still have some range left it just make since that they are talking about useable capacity.
SparkE
Well-known member
It's a shame that the engadget article didn't get proof-read (or at least read by somebody who understood EVs). Typing/language errors, missing words, and some stuff 'just plain wrong' (such as : "GM says with an 80kWh quick charger, you can add 90 miles in 30 minutes. ").
First, it would be a charger rated in kW, not kWh. Second, a 80kW charger would add about 180 miles to an empty battery in 30 minutes (considering that 48kWh is 80% of 60 kWh).
First, it would be a charger rated in kW, not kWh. Second, a 80kW charger would add about 180 miles to an empty battery in 30 minutes (considering that 48kWh is 80% of 60 kWh).
oilerlord
Well-known member
DucRider said:
^^this^^
Thank you.
WetEV
Well-known member
voltage said:
A 40 Amp 240V outlet could charge this car in 9 hours.
A 15 Amp (12 Amp continuous) 120V outlet could NOT charge this car in 18 hours. More like 48 hours or more. 1440 Watts maximum will not charge 60kWh in under 41.67 hours at 100% efficiency.
And this is one reason why it's not a good idea to just cut and paste the text of article. You [Voltage] can mislead people into thinking that you actually wrote the article. Those words were written by Roberto Baldwin from Engadget.WetEV said:
The same error was called out in the comments section of his article.
https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/14/behind-the-wheel-of-gms-new-bolt/#comments
roundpeg
Well-known member
Here's the LA Times' take on the Monterey to Santa Barbara drive:
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-bolt-ev-drive-20160912-snap-story.html
The short video is worth watching too.
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-bolt-ev-drive-20160912-snap-story.html
The short video is worth watching too.
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