Educate me - the great range debate

[ScooterCT]

I'd like to ask those of you who have actually owned any EV for an extended period of time (or for a Bolt owner, a few months), what's your take on this article? It's obvious more range is always better. Or is it?

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/245901-100-mile-evs-may-need-automakers-say

I'd like to hear your take on what the article says based on your personal, real-world experience. And thanks for sharing.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

There's no right answer to this, it's all subjective. It depends on each drivers needs and situation. In the right use case, 100 miles or less is fine. It's worked for a lot of us for years now. For someone in that group, there'll always be used low range, pack depleted cars available, and cheap. But if you need more, or want more, at a reasonable cost, then we need the market to evolve in that direction.

I can live with low range, I just don't want to.

 

[boltage]

Shorter range EVs may be subject to greater battery degradation due to more charge cycles for the same number of miles.

Shorter range EVs may not be convenient for those who have one car but make occasional longer trips more frequently than renting cars would be convenient.

 

[michael]

I disagree with much of the article.

MPGe is really not important because ALL EVs are so efficient compared to ICE cars. It's worrying about the amount of frosting on the cake. Efficiency claims are what manufacturers and fan-boys pull out when they don't have something more important to claim.

In my opinion, the critical performance features are

Range
Charging rate

Large batteries absolutely will last longer than small batteries, for every reason.

Low depth of discharge
Ample reserves even when fade does occur.

The importance of weight in EVs is over stated by manufacturers with small batteries A major determinant of drag in an EV is air resistance, not rolling resistance. This is not affected by weight. Unlike an ICE car, much of the energy used to accelerate extra weight is recovered when slowing. In an ICE car, it's totally wasted, turned into heat in the brakes. Yes, lighter is better, but it's less important than having an adequate battery.

It is a PITA to need to plan a weekend like a trans-Atlantic flight in a Cessna. How far will the car go? Where can I recharge? What if the charging point is unavailable? What if I need to use the heater? What if it's windy?

I did 50,000+ miles in an 80 mile class car, so I got a ton of use out of it. But I will NEVER get another one. I watched the battery fade. I froze in the winter. I drafted trucks to reduce energy use. I did this all happily for the adventure, because I think electric cars are so much superior, but because at the time nothing under $80,000 would go much further.

Would anyone ever consider an ICE car with a three gallon tank? That actually would be more practical than a 80 mile EV....at least you can refuel predictably and quickly.

200 mile range is the new baseline. Anything less is obsolescent.

IMHO

 

[oilerlord]

I did 50,000+ miles in an 80 mile class car, so I got a ton of use out of it. But I will NEVER get another one. I watched the battery fade. I froze in the winter. I drafted trucks to reduce energy use. I did this all happily for the adventure, because I think electric cars are so much superior...

200 mile range is the new baseline. Anything less is obsolescent.

IMHO

I'm still on my honeymoon with my 80 mile class car. Happy to report that we still love each other. To Michael's point about 50,000+ miles however...? We'll see.

From research I've read, few drive more than 40 miles per day. If an EV is the ONLY car in your garage, then sure, range could be a big deal. I simply take my wife's car for the occasional long trip, others drive their Volt, etc. The range debate for people with 2+ cars, is much ado about nothing.

The article also had this heading:

"Americans want more than compact cars"

For me, this one line speaks volumes. I'm sure a lot of people can make do with a micro car like a Spark EV (a car I highly respect) but choose not to. The Bolt is also to small, and frankly - has too many sacrifices for me to accept despite it's 200 mile range. Again, I'm only 8,000 mile into my Mercedes - but it has a level of luxury and interior space & cargo area that my wife and I have become accustomed to, and appreciate despite it's modest range. People do want more than compact cars, especially "affordable" ones that cost $40,000.

 

[sgt1372]

I agree completely w/what @michael says above.

I think I am among those in the broader range of people, who are NOT fully invested in a "green" philosophy and are only interested in buying/leasing an EV car if it meets their basic transportation needs in the same way that an ICE car can w/o any inconvenience or concern in terms of range or charge times.

If an EV can do this, then the lower cost of electricity vs gas/diesel, the convenience of charging at home and the "benefit" to the environment would be the factors that would tip the choice to an EV over an ICE vehicle. So, it's range and charging (cost/time and convenience) that matter most to a "non-green committed EV purchaser) like me.

MPGe wasn't even not something that I thought about before I leased my Bolt. Range was the most important factor followed by the ability to fully charge at home overnight. The greater the range, the farther I can go on a single charge and the less often that I will need to recharge, which greatly increases the car's usefulness.

So, I think that Hyundai is mistaken about the importance of MPGe to the EV market. I never considered the Iconiq because it only promised a 124 mile range (or a Leaf or i3 for that matter because they promised even less). The only EVs I considered were the Bolt amd M3 because they both promised a 200+ mile range at a reasonable price. $70k-100k+ for a Model S or X is not a reasonable price. The Bolt won because it was available NOW and I wasn't willing to wait for the M3.

The availabilty of chargers, charge time and cost for long distance driving was NEVER a consideration for me because I would rather drive one of my other cars to avoid the concern over the location and availability of chargers on such trips, which I'd rather do in my BMW or MB which would be more comfortable on such trips anyway.

Of course, everyone doesn't have the luxury of owning more than one car BUT, given the limitations currently inherent in long distance EV travel (even for Teslas), I do not think that single car owners/users, who want/need to use their EV for long distance travel, are the primary market for an EV.

in line w/@oilerlord's point, IMO, the people most likely to opt for an EV are those, like me, who just need/want a 2nd car to use primarily for local transportation, who will only need/want to charge their cars at home AND, until the public charging network improves to the level of the Tesla Superchargers, I think that EV car markers should just focus on selling/leading their EVs to the 2+ car market (or to those single car owners who don't mind the inconvenience of trying to drive their EV long distance or who are willing to rent an ICE for such trips instead) .

 

[oilerlord]

I think that Hyundai is mistaken about the importance of MPGe to the EV market. I never considered the Iconiq because it only promised a 124 mile range.

MPGe and range are usually independent of each other. The Ioniq is currently has the #1 MPGe ranking of 136 MPGe (the Bolt's is 119). I think the mistake that Hyundai may have made is not understanding the public's perception about how much range we need.

The first week or two with my EV were a little a little stressful, mostly because the other car I was driving could easily reach 600 miles on a fill up. I was conditioned (as most are) to believe that long range is something we "need". Sometimes, it is, but in my experience, it rarely is. I think you'll come to that realization too.

Enjoy your new Bolt. You're going to love driving electric.

 

[dandrewk]

There's nothing new here. Nissan and others have long tried to convince buyers that "100 miles is all you need". For the most part, they don't succeed.

No matter how true the automaker's claim may be, the #1 reason potential buyers say they aren't interested in EVs: Lack of range. The Bolt will help change that perception.

 

[boltage]

The article also had this heading:

"Americans want more than compact cars"

For me, this one line speaks volumes. I'm sure a lot of people can make do with a micro car like a Spark EV (a car I highly respect) but choose not to. The Bolt is also to small, and frankly - has too many sacrifices for me to accept despite it's 200 mile range. Again, I'm only 8,000 mile into my Mercedes - but it has a level of luxury and interior space & cargo area that my wife and I have become accustomed to, and appreciate despite it's modest range. People do want more than compact cars, especially "affordable" ones that cost $40,000.

Regarding the size, the Mercedes B250e has a larger footprint than the Bolt, but its total interior room is the same as the Chevrolet Bolt according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov . However, the B250e has less passenger room and more cargo room. In cubic feet:

90 passenger, 22 cargo -- Mercedes B250e (EPA class "midsize car")
95 passenger, 17 cargo -- Chevrolet Bolt (EPA class "small station wagon")

 

[oilerlord]

In cubic feet:

90 passenger, 22 cargo -- Mercedes B250e (EPA class "midsize car")
95 passenger, 17 cargo -- Chevrolet Bolt (EPA class "small station wagon")

Haven't checked, but the rear-seat legroom might be better in the Bolt too, but may have been at the expense of space behind the rear seats. A medium size dog crate fits perfectly behind the rear seats in my B-Class (as if it was made for it), but would be a non-starter in a Bolt. Sure, I could just fold down the rear seats, but I don't want to - and if we were in an accident; I wouldn't want the crate flying forward. As we go places with our dog a lot, this was important to us. Also, the inside of the Bolt feels narrow to me. The Mercedes doesn't. Like my car's range, sometimes it isn't only about the numbers.

 

[boltage]

Fair enough. The B250e interior room is not bigger, but it is organized in a way that is better for your specific use (the dog crate behind the back seat).

 

[LeftieBiker]

Nissan and others have long tried to convince buyers that "100 miles is all you need". For the most part, they don't succeed.

Nissan failed because the Leaf didn't have an actual 100 mile range. Sure, it is possible to drive 100 miles in a 24kwh Leaf, but only at low speeds in mild weather. Had the car achieved 100 miles of real world range, it would have sold much better, with much less anger and range anxiety resulting. The 30kwh Leaf actually does have a 100 mile range with A/C on ( and roughly a 90 mile range with heat) but with so much competition and a now-dated design, it's seen as undesirable by many prospective EV drivers.

 

[boltage]

Would anyone ever consider an ICE car with a three gallon tank? That actually would be more practical than a 80 mile EV....at least you can refuel predictably and quickly.

Well, you can get a BMW i3 with REX -- a short range EV with a gasoline engine range extender with a tiny fuel tank.

 

[michael]

Would anyone ever consider an ICE car with a three gallon tank? That actually would be more practical than a 80 mile EV....at least you can refuel predictably and quickly.

Well, you can get a BMW i3 with REX -- a short range EV with a gasoline engine range extender with a tiny fuel tank.

Right. But that's not an EV nor is it an ICE car but rather an EREV. Yes. It's got a place.

I chose a Volt over an I3 because the Volt has great performance and range when in hybrid mode and the I3 has neither

 

[like2bike]

Good to see we've got a range of opinions here. Bottom line is there will soon be a wide range of choices that were not available to us gen 1 EV buyers. Although I was satisfied with the LEAF range, I can certainly appreciate the 238 mi Bolt. Seeing how the Bolt beat the MPGe of the LEAF, it seems hard to justify use of a smaller battery for efficiency. And the battery cost issue seems to be rapidly going away.

 

[JHawk]

We have a Kia Soul EV (93 mile range) and a Chevy Bolt EV (238 mile range). We only charge at home, which is convenient and hassle free.

I bought the Soul EV 16 months ago and for over a year it was our main car. During that time there were two trips that didn't fit the Soul's range. Our second car was an ICE car so we used it in on those trips. There were many times that I had to think about the range on the Soul. I often checked the mileage for the day on Google maps to make sure we would be ok. It always feels uncomfortable getting home with less than 25 miles left. I never got used to that. I few times we went without heat or AC as a safety precaution.

Two months ago we replaced the ICE car with a Bolt. We now have two EVs. With the Bolt we never have to think about range. It makes a BIG difference mentally. We still only charge at home. If we want to do a longer trip than the Bolt can handle I would probably borrow or rent an ICE car. For long trips (camping e.g.) we might prefer a larger car anyway. After owing the Bolt for two months I can't imagine I would get a future EV with less than 200 miles range, especially if it was our only car. Everyone's needs are different, this is what works for us.

My feeling is the longer the range of the car, the MORE you need fast chargers along the road. With the Soul I was never tempted to go on a long road trip as I would be stopping every hour. With the Bolt I might do a trip where I could charge overnight at my destination. If I had a car with 400 miles of range I would be much more likely to drive for 6 hours and then charge during a meal.

We very much prefer compact cars. One of the reasons we didn't buy a Tesla is they are too big for our taste. The MPGe, battery pack size, and battery weight have no practical impact for us.

 

[Wookie]

If you don't mind 0-60 times of 11 seconds, enjoy your IONIQ's MPGe's all you want.

If you want to enjoy driving while still kicking the crap out of ICE mileage, then get a Bolt.

 

[phil0909]

If you don't mind 0-60 times of 11 seconds, enjoy your IONIQ's MPGe's all you want.

If you want to enjoy driving while still kicking the crap out of ICE mileage, then get a Bolt.

I think it's actually nine point something, but your point is well taken.

 

[michael]

We have a Kia Soul EV (93 mile range) and a Chevy Bolt EV (238 mile range). We only charge at home, which is convenient and hassle free.

I bought the Soul EV 16 months ago and for over a year it was our main car. During that time there were two trips that didn't fit the Soul's range. Our second car was an ICE car so we used it in on those trips. There were many times that I had to think about the range on the Soul. I often checked the mileage for the day on Google maps to make sure we would be ok. It always feels uncomfortable getting home with less than 25 miles left. I never got used to that. I few times we went without heat or AC as a safety precaution.

Two months ago we replaced the ICE car with a Bolt. We now have two EVs. With the Bolt we never have to think about range. It makes a BIG difference mentally. We still only charge at home. If we want to do a longer trip than the Bolt can handle I would probably borrow or rent an ICE car. For long trips (camping e.g.) we might prefer a larger car anyway. After owing the Bolt for two months I can't imagine I would get a future EV with less than 200 miles range, especially if it was our only car. Everyone's needs are different, this is what works for us.

My feeling is the longer the range of the car, the MORE you need fast chargers along the road. With the Soul I was never tempted to go on a long road trip as I would be stopping every hour. With the Bolt I might do a trip where I could charge overnight at my destination. If I had a car with 400 miles of range I would be much more likely to drive for 6 hours and then charge during a meal.

We very much prefer compact cars. One of the reasons we didn't buy a Tesla is they are too big for our taste. The MPGe, battery pack size, and battery weight have no practical impact for us.

I largely agree with you. However, I got used to getting home from time to time with well under 10 miles left. A lot of this due to knowing my terrain and how much energy was needed at certain places. ("If I have at least 2 kWh left at Ventura Blvd, I can make it up the hill to Mulholland and from there I can almost coast home if necessary....")

And while I see your point about needing fast charging once EV's are suited to long distance travel, I don't feel even the Bolt is there. My 80 mile class car would have benefited with L2 charging all over the place as a safety net. The Bolt, I feel, carries enough energy with it to meet almost all my needs, therefore no need to charge away from home. If I'm going to travel, I'll take the Volt, still much easier than any EV.

 

[phil0909]

With the Bolt we never have to think about range. It makes a BIG difference mentally. We still only charge at home. If we want to do a longer trip than the Bolt can handle I would probably borrow or rent an ICE car. For long trips (camping e.g.) we might prefer a larger car anyway. After owing the Bolt for two months I can't imagine I would get a future EV with less than 200 miles range, especially if it was our only car. Everyone's needs are different, this is what works for us.

I also agree. With adequate range, electric cars like the Bolt are great for commuting and local driving. But electric cars are miserable on road trips. I wouldn't even think about taking it on a trip beyond its range.