Yet Another Comparison: Bolt vs BMW i3 vs Tesla Model s

[Dgodfrey]

I have actually, the reason typically given is the lack of range. These of course were for 1st gen EV's. That argument will be harder to sell now that the Bolt and Model 3 have arrived and the Leaf 2 right behind. I think you will still get some whining though about the charging time for out of town trips. That is still the weakest link in the EV lifestyle. Hopefully as the 350 Kwh+ chargers start to materialize and the manufacturers match the on board chargers to handle the load, it will soon too become moot. I believe I read somewhere that you should be able to get an 80% charge on a 60 Kw battery in about 7 minutes which is the target needed to get the same ZEV credits that the fuel cell cars get.

 

[Zoomit]

I have actually, the reason typically given is the lack of range. These of course were for 1st gen EV's. That argument will be harder to sell now that the Bolt and Model 3 have arrived and the Leaf 2 right behind. I think you will still get some whining though about the charging time for out of town trips. That is still the weakest link in the EV lifestyle. Hopefully as the 350 Kwh+ chargers start to materialize and the manufacturers match the on board chargers to handle the load, it will soon too become moot. I believe I read somewhere that you should be able to get an 80% charge on a 60 Kw battery in about 7 minutes which is the target needed to get the same ZEV credits that the fuel cell cars get.

Unfortunately, I think your optimism for 7 minute recharges is unfounded. The limitation is not the availability of higher-power chargers. The limitation is battery chemistry. No current or near-term battery that I've heard of will be able to recharge 60 kWh in 7 minutes. That's a recharge rate of over 8C, almost 10x higher than what the Bolt EV battery is capable of supporting (~0.8C). The highest C rate that I know of is the i-MiEV that recharges at ~2.7C. There are a few others that recharge around 2.5C (Spark EV, Soul EV).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

2.5C is a full charge in 24 minutes. Or more realistically, an 80% charge in less than 20 minutes. I would be thrilled to have that along with a 200 mile range. I think a lot of people would scoff at the idea, on paper. But in practice, most people wouldn't even notice the extra time charging. It's not like I have to babysit the car like I did with an ICE.

 

[oilerlord]

Congrats!

I think the vast majority of new EV owners will agree: Once you go EV, you can never go back to ICE.

Which makes me wonder: Has anyone heard of anyone saying "had an EV for three years, hated the driving experience, went back to my gas burner"?

You continue to think in absolute, binary terms. "Never" is one of them. In the real world, a lot of us own several cars, and we choose which one we're going to drive to suit a purpose or fill a specific need. Some need a truck to tow a trailer, while others need a minivan to haul kids around, and others love convertibles. For others a hybrid or PHEV makes more sense than a BEV. There's nothing wrong with that.

Easily 95% of my city driving happens with my EV. I may not want to back to ICE, but the reality is that our EV doesn't fit all of our needs, or performs well enough in winter's snow & -20C cold. Later this month, we're going on a trip to Seattle - 790 miles away. Even if I owned a Bolt, I'd still take my VW wagon because it's a larger car that fit all of our stuff, returns about 47 mpg on the highway, and I don't have to plan the trip around charging the car. I don't "hate" any of the cars we own. For us, they are simply different tools for different jobs.

 

[oilerlord]

2.5C is a full charge in 24 minutes. Or more realistically, an 80% charge in less than 20 minutes. I would be thrilled to have that along with a 200 mile range. I think a lot of people would scoff at the idea, on paper. But in practice, most people wouldn't even notice the extra time charging. It's not like I have to babysit the car like I did with an ICE.

Since we're discussing things "realistically", let's see...3 minutes to fill up and drive up to 400 miles with our X3 or a minimum of 30 minutes on DCFC to drive 90 miles with the Bolt. I can't speak for "most" people, but in practice, I'm pretty sure my wife would notice that it's taking longer than usual to get back on the road.

 

[dandrewk]

Congrats!

I think the vast majority of new EV owners will agree: Once you go EV, you can never go back to ICE.

Which makes me wonder: Has anyone heard of anyone saying "had an EV for three years, hated the driving experience, went back to my gas burner"?

You continue to think in absolute, binary terms. "Never" is one of them. In the real world, a lot of us own several cars, and we choose which one we're going to drive to suit a purpose or fill a specific need. Some need a truck to tow a trailer, while others need a minivan to haul kids around, and others love convertibles. For others a hybrid or PHEV makes more sense than a BEV. There's nothing wrong with that.

Easily 95% of my city driving happens with my EV. I may not want to back to ICE, but the reality is that our EV doesn't fit all of our needs, or performs well enough in winter's snow & -20C cold. Later this month, we're going on a trip to Seattle - 790 miles away. Even if I owned a Bolt, I'd still take my VW wagon because it's a larger car that fit all of our stuff, returns about 47 mpg on the highway, and I don't have to plan the trip around charging the car. I don't "hate" any of the cars we own. For us, they are simply different tools for different jobs.

You continue to think and post in pedantic, argumentative terms.

Instead of parsing and taking points out of context with your usual dose of straw man points, perhaps you can just -simply- answer the question?

 

[DucRider]

Since we're discussing things "realistically", let's see...3 minutes to fill up and drive up to 400 miles with our X3 or a minimum of 30 minutes on DCFC to drive 90 miles with the Bolt. I can't speak for "most" people, but in practice, I'm pretty sure my wife would notice that it's taking longer than usual to get back on the road.

If you routinely drive 400+ miles on a trip, this is true.
However, when using the Bolt to commute, how much time is saved fueling in a year? Taking it to the dealer for service (oil change, etc)?
I see lines of cars that routinely wait 10+ minutes to start a fill up at Costco as part of their weekly routine.
My wife loves that aspect of driving an EV - it's always full when she goes out in the morning and never worries about having to fill up to make it to work or home.

And when on a long trip with my wife, a gas stop is always longer than 3 minutes. After 100+ miles, it's time for the restroom, a stretch and/or short walk, etc. She wouldn't put up with a 3 minute stop every 400 miles (I don't know of many who drive that way even on cross country trips). For most people, your scenario is even less "realistic". 800 miles with one 3 minute stop?

 

[oilerlord]

If you routinely drive 400+ miles on a trip, this is true.

It's also true if you occasionally drive up to 400+ miles on a trip. A 3 minute fill up is a 3 minute fill up.

And when on a long trip with my wife, a gas stop is always longer than 3 minutes. After 100+ miles, it's time for the restroom, a stretch and/or short walk, etc. She wouldn't put up with a 3 minute stop every 400 miles (I don't know of many who drive that way even on cross country trips)

While a Bolt will need to stop 4+ times to charge ~30 minutes, if we drive our X3, we can choose to stop once, twice, three times, or do the entire 400 miles without stopping. I'm sure some people take their Bolts on road trips, and love planning how they are are going to spend 30 minutes of their time every 90 miles. I'm not one of them. On a road trip, I'd rather have the option of if and/or where we're going to stop, and for how long rather than the car making that choice for us.

For most people, your scenario is even less "realistic". 800 miles with one 3 minute stop?

Seriously, Gary...what scenario is that? Edmonton to Seattle is about 790 miles. Aside from the fact it isn't possible to make that trip with my VW on one tank of diesel (my record is 702 miles), I never suggested anyone attempt driving 800 miles straight with one 3 minute stop. Not sure why anyone would want to try that, With any car.

However, when using the Bolt to commute, how much time is saved fueling in a year? Taking it to the dealer for service (oil change, etc)?

I've already mentioned I do 95% of my city driving with my EV. I love it. It just doesn't do everything well. Few vehicles do. Are some of us in the EV community so insecure to accept that some people may choose to drive an ICEV, hybrid, or PHEV because a BEV may not necessarily work for them in all situations? Sure looks that way because simply discussing the car I choose to take on a road trip quickly devolves into another stupid ICE vs EV debate .

 

[GetOffYourGas]

2.5C is a full charge in 24 minutes. Or more realistically, an 80% charge in less than 20 minutes. I would be thrilled to have that along with a 200 mile range. I think a lot of people would scoff at the idea, on paper. But in practice, most people wouldn't even notice the extra time charging. It's not like I have to babysit the car like I did with an ICE.

Since we're discussing things "realistically", let's see...3 minutes to fill up and drive up to 400 miles with our X3 or a minimum of 30 minutes on DCFC to drive 90 miles with the Bolt. I can't speak for "most" people, but in practice, I'm pretty sure my wife would notice that it's taking longer than usual to get back on the road.

My friend, I was speaking about a theoretical 200 mile car that could charge at 2.5C up to 80%. That would give you 160 miles in 20 minutes. A bit better than the Bolt's advertised 90 miles in 30 minutes, no?

I am not arguing with you that there isn't a point in which an ICE simply becomes the more convenient choice. My implied (but not stated) point was that we are talking about weekend-type trips and not cross-country adventures. I should have been more clear.

Also keep in mind that any trip *should* start with a full charge. The first 200 miles are "free". Unlike a gas/diesel car, which you may either have to fuel the day before or when you start your trip.

One more point. When I'm on a long trip (greater than 200 miles), my stops are always more than just pumping gas. I get the kids out of the car, we all use the restroom, grab some snacks...before you know it, 15-20 minutes has passed and my theoretical EV is charged with another 160 miles in the battery. I recognize that's not everyone. In fact, that wasn't me when I was in college. Then I would absolutely pull in, pump gas, and move along.

 

[oilerlord]

My friend, I was speaking about a theoretical 200 mile car that could charge at 2.5C up to 80%. That would give you 160 miles in 20 minutes. A bit better than the Bolt's advertised 90 miles in 30 minutes, no?

I am not arguing with you that there isn't a point in which an ICE simply becomes the more convenient choice. My implied (but not stated) point was that we are talking about weekend-type trips and not cross-country adventures. I should have been more clear.

My bad, and I understand where you're coming from now. A theoretical 160 miles of range in 20 minutes of charging would be a big leap forward for the Bolt, Perhaps one day it will happen.

 

[alevek]

You'll love the freedom from gas! I only charge up once a week!

Picked up the car Saturday afternoon and I haven't been able to wipe the smile off my face since?!?! Everyone that has seen the car has been impressed. I got rid of an 06 Range Rover Sport Supercharged. I won't miss those weekly $50+ trips to the gas station (or the less than 15 mpg). Not gonna lie, it took some time getting used to the quiet. Now I'm wondering if I can ever go back?!?! If you see a red bolt on the road in the DFW area, blow your horn and wave at me. I'll wave back.

Know exactly how you feel coming from an Expedition!

 

[alevek]

I have actually, the reason typically given is the lack of range. These of course were for 1st gen EV's. That argument will be harder to sell now that the Bolt and Model 3 have arrived and the Leaf 2 right behind. I think you will still get some whining though about the charging time for out of town trips. That is still the weakest link in the EV lifestyle. Hopefully as the 350 Kwh+ chargers start to materialize and the manufacturers match the on board chargers to handle the load, it will soon too become moot. I believe I read somewhere that you should be able to get an 80% charge on a 60 Kw battery in about 7 minutes which is the target needed to get the same ZEV credits that the fuel cell cars get.

Unfortunately, I think your optimism for 7 minute recharges is unfounded. The limitation is not the availability of higher-power chargers. The limitation is battery chemistry. No current or near-term battery that I've heard of will be able to recharge 60 kWh in 7 minutes. That's a recharge rate of over 8C, almost 10x higher than what the Bolt EV battery is capable of supporting (~0.8C). The highest C rate that I know of is the i-MiEV that recharges at ~2.7C. There are a few others that recharge around 2.5C (Spark EV, Soul EV).

I remember my first hard disk was a whopping 5 MB. and was the size of a lunch box. Who would have thought we would have 1 Terabyte in a portable drive with just a USB connection smaller than an iPhone.

 

[michael]

I remember my first hard disk was a whopping 5 MB. and was the size of a lunch box. Who would have thought we would have 1 Terabyte in a portable drive with just a USB connection smaller than an iPhone.

Oh, I remember that one too...a 5 MB full size Seagate drive. A half dozen of us gathered around, in awe of its quiet smoothness and huge capability compared to our existing floppy drives.

I continue to feel the concern about long distance travel is misplaced. The Bolt easily does most peoples' daily work with overnight charging. Not everyone's but most people. And many (maybe most?) people have more than one car, or at least easy access to another car. And essentially everyone can rent a car. So in those cases where long distance travel is planned, something other than the Bolt works perfectly (Volt often is great choice). Obviously, if you're someone who regularly takes long trips, that's a different matter. But if you tow a boat or do any of several other activities a Bolt isn't right either.

In the last two years, I can recall only one trip I took by car where a Bolt wouldn't have done well...A trip from L.A. to Napa Valley and back. We took a Volt, it was perfect.

Last weekend I went to Palm Springs. While the Bolt probably wouldn't have made it round trip without charging, a 20 minute squirt of juice anywhere along the way would have done the job.

 

[oilerlord]

I remember my first hard disk was a whopping 5 MB. and was the size of a lunch box. Who would have thought we would have 1 Terabyte in a portable drive with just a USB connection smaller than an iPhone.

He did frame in terms of "No current or near-term battery".

I was installing 20MB hard drives in 1990. Ten years later, we were at 20GB. Along with the plummeting price per MB, smaller form factors, and huge leaps in performance, that's an storage improvement three orders of magnitude. If similar advancements in technology were applied to batteries in our electric cars, the Nissan Leaf's battery would be only need to be recharged once every 100,000 miles, would be the size of a toaster, and would cost ~$500 to replace.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

If similar advancements in technology were applied to batteries in our electric cars, the Nissan Leaf's battery would be only need to be recharged once every 100,000 miles, would be the size of a toaster, and would cost ~$500 to replace.

I'll take two, please! Together, they'd outlast the car! :lol:

 

[boltage]

I was installing 20MB hard drives in 1990. Ten years later, we were at 20GB. Along with the plummeting price per MB, smaller form factors, and huge leaps in performance, that's an storage improvement three orders of magnitude. If similar advancements in technology were applied to batteries in our electric cars, the Nissan Leaf's battery would be only need to be recharged once every 100,000 miles, would be the size of a toaster, and would cost ~$500 to replace.

A charge good for 100,000 miles may be rather expensive, though.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I was installing 20MB hard drives in 1990. Ten years later, we were at 20GB. Along with the plummeting price per MB, smaller form factors, and huge leaps in performance, that's an storage improvement three orders of magnitude. If similar advancements in technology were applied to batteries in our electric cars, the Nissan Leaf's battery would be only need to be recharged once every 100,000 miles, would be the size of a toaster, and would cost ~$500 to replace.

A charge good for 100,000 miles may be rather expensive, though.

But like any good car, it should come charged (fueled) from the dealership when you buy it! :lol:

 

[oilerlord]

A charge good for 100,000 miles may be rather expensive, though.

As long as we're dreaming...In the future, who charges their cars anymore? You're thinking so 2017.

 

[gbobman]

It may be classified as a nuclear wessel.

 

[oilerlord]

Not everyone.

I've driven both cars. To me, it's always been ridiculous comparison between what is so obviously an compact budget EV vs a full-size high end EV. I'll stipulate that the Bolt is an important first step in bringing an affordable 200 mile BEV to the masses but with that said, the Bolt isn't a Tesla Model S by any stretch of the imagination. They are both utilize electric powertrains, and are indeed cars, but that's where the similarities end. In the gasoline world, comparing a Bolt with a Model S is like comparing a Chevy Sonic with an Audi S7. They are that dissimilar.