“Pencils Down” For Tesla Model 3, As Chevrolet Bolt Readies For Production

[mark111]

If it were a race, General Motors will easily win…

According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, the Model 3 entered the “pencils down” stage in the past week or so (Musk confirmed this last night at the Gigafactory press event), meaning that the design is now finished; but now development, engineering, on-road testing, pre-production builds, supplier contracts (and on and on and…) must still be completed before production of the Model 3 begins.

Meanwhile, the Chevrolet Bolt is set to go into production this October, and small armies of the car have been spotted already the US over the past few months. To the best of our knowledge, most all of the steps required prior to production have been completed in regards to the Bolt. In fact, final validations tests started more than one month ago.

http://insideevs.com/pencils-tesla-model-3-chevrolet-bolt-readies-production/

 

[Diggle]

But still there's no supercharger network for Chevy Bolt. The sign isn't a good one.

 

[theflew]

It's easier for GM to help fund a charging network than for Tesla to get the Model 3 on the road.

 

[michael]

I still don't understand why people think its important or even reasonable for GM or any other manufacturer to provide a charging network. Do we expect them to build gas stations? Of course not...that's the job of energy companies.

It would be more reasonable to ask why Shell, Standard, etc. etc don't provide charging capabilities at their gas stations. They can charge all they want, just like any convenience store. They are willing to sell Diesel. They are willing to sell hydrogen...why not electricity?

 

[SeanNelson]

I still don't understand why people think its important or even reasonable for GM or any other manufacturer to provide a charging network.

It's Tesla envy. And it probably depends on where you live. Here in British Columbia we're starting to get a network of fast chargers that makes me reasonably comfortable that I won't need a dealer-supported network. I'm sure the same is true of most of California and in fact the entire West Coast seems to be coming along pretty well. But there are huge areas of the country where the only fast chargers are the ones that Tesla has installed.

Where there's no infrastructure except for Tesla, you can see why potential Bolt owners would look to anyone they think might fill that gap. It seems like GM is in a good position to ask some strategically located dealers to install fast chargers, perhaps cost-sharing with them. GM claims its dealer network is one of its strengths and a reason to buy a Bolt instead of a Tesla - well this would be a very practical and useful way to walk the talk.

Other private businesses are agreeable to having chargers installed, so I don't see why GM couldn't be one of them. Nissan seems to be doing a pretty good job of it with its dealers. It doesn't have to be at every dealer, and GM doesn't have to try to replace the public network that's already being developed. But they could go a long way toward filling in some of the gaps.

 

[DucRider]

95% of all travel in EV's does not require Fast Charging.

The economics of public charging are, at best, iffy. They are not a profitable venture. One of the attractions of EV's is the "cheap to fuel" aspect. If you need to pay for not only the electricity at a public charger, but a portion of the equipment cost, permitting, installation, maintenance, billing, and a little profit for the company the owns the equipment, you find an EV not so cheap to fuel.

We'll see how putting 10x the number of Tesla's on the road impacts the Supercharger Network (and how and how much Tesla decides to charge M3 owners to use it).

 

[Zoomit]

The last thing I want to do on a routine basis is go to a Chevy dealer.

Putting 50kW chargers at dealers is dramatically different than Tesla Superchargers at locations convenient for long distance travel.

 

[SeanNelson]

95% of all travel in EV's does not require Fast Charging.
The economics of public charging are, at best, iffy. They are not a profitable venture. One of the attractions of EV's is the "cheap to fuel" aspect. If you need to pay for not only the electricity at a public charger, but a portion of the equipment cost, permitting, installation, maintenance, billing, and a little profit for the company the owns the equipment, you find an EV not so cheap to fuel.

That's why the fast charger infrastructure has to concentrate on travel charging, IMHO. It's worth a lot more to people to pay for charging on a trip where there are no alternatives than in the city where they can charge at home. The only exception to that is "destination charging", where you're on a trip in a city that you don't live in. But it looks to me like hotels are picking up on this trend - there seem to be a lot of hotels here in BC that are getting Level 2 chargers installed which is a good fit for an overnight charge while you sleep.

 

[SeanNelson]

(Sorry duplicate post and the forum won't let me delete it...)

 

[SeanNelson]

(whoops, another one - my apologies!!! It's my fault - twice I hit "quote" instead of "edit".... )

 

[SeanNelson]

The last thing I want to do on a routine basis is go to a Chevy dealer.

Putting 50kW chargers at dealers is dramatically different than Tesla Superchargers at locations convenient for long distance travel.

I totally understand. But getting land or some other business's permission is a big cost and obstacle to installation. Those issues don't exist if GM asks its dealers to install chargers. And dealers that sell EVs would benefit from them too, so there's more incentive for it.

While dealer-located chargers aren't ideal, they're a lot better than nothing. If it means the difference between getting installed chargers necessary to make long distance trips versus not, then I'll take the dealers, please. And the dealers asked to host these could be selected with a bit of intelligence. For example there's a GM dealer here in Vancouver that's literally right across the street from a major shopping mall - I'd have no problem with that.

The choices for GM are: (a) do nothing, (b) install some chargers at strategically located dealers to make long trips feasible, or (c) try to emulate Tesla's network.

Given that (c) ain't gonna happen, I'd be quite happy with (b).

 

[michael]

Once you get 200+ mile range, probably even more than 95% of use can be handled well without fast charging. My Focus has 75 mile class range, and I managed fine with level 2 for 52,000 miles.

Unlike Tesla, Chevy offers the Volt which is even better suited for long distance travel than the Model S even with supercharging. I understand that some people have one car only and don't have the option of having both a Bolt and Volt in the family fleet. But everyone can rent a car for a long trip....many people who lease do so just to save miles.

Forgive me because I've said this before, but the map of Superchargers is totally impressive, but it doesn't mean squat to me. It's like the cellular maps showing coverage all over North Dakota. I care that the car handles what I do 95-99% of the time. A 200 mile class EV will do that easily without ever relying on any public charging.

 

[DucRider]

The last thing I want to do on a routine basis is go to a Chevy dealer.

Putting 50kW chargers at dealers is dramatically different than Tesla Superchargers at locations convenient for long distance travel.

I totally understand. But getting land or some other business's permission is a big cost and obstacle to installation. Those issues don't exist if GM asks its dealers to install chargers. And dealers that sell EVs would benefit from them too, so there's more incentive for it.

While dealer-located chargers aren't ideal, they're a lot better than nothing. If it means the difference between getting installed chargers necessary to make long distance trips versus not, then I'll take the dealers, please. And the dealers asked to host these could be selected with a bit of intelligence. For example there's a GM dealer here in Vancouver that's literally right across the street from a major shopping mall - I'd have no problem with that.

The choices for GM are: (a) do nothing, (b) install some chargers at strategically located dealers to make long trips feasible, or (c) try to emulate Tesla's network.

Given that (c) ain't gonna happen, I'd be quite happy with (b).

Getting land or permission isn't usually a problem - as long as someone else is willing to foot the bill for the equipment and install. Running 3-phase 480 to a parking lot can get pricey, even if that kind of power is already available on the property. Not to mention the equipment and maintenance costs. Plus you have to contract for a 3rd party network to handle billing - if it's free, and in a decent location, it will tend to be busy with people "opportunity charging" (they don't really need a charge, but it's free so what the heck). Tesla created a bit of a stir by asking Model S owners to stop abusing the Superchargers - instead of "free for life", it's now described as "free for long distance travel".

A few problems with the dealership idea.
1) Most dealers aren't located where needed most - near freeways for long distance travel.
2) A single 50 kW DCFC installation might be OK for a while, but if you're counting on it to make your trip and it's busy and has another EV waiting (Bolt, i3, e-Golf, Spark EV, etc.), you're stuck for at least an hour or two before continuing your trip. If your talking banks of 50 kW chargers, it could easily be $200K plus for the install. When Kia rolled out the Soul EV, the dealer contribution for a single 50 kW (CHAdeMO and CCS combo unit) was $50K.
3) Demand charges - Most dealers will be on commercial electricity rates, and running one or more 50 kW charging units could very likely kick them into "whoa, my electricity bill is how much?!" territory. I know of at least one CHAdeMO unit taken off line for that very reason.
4) 24 hour access - dealers generally don't want people coming and going on their lots after hours (for a variety of reasons), so EVSE's at dealerships are often available only during business hours.

 

[michael]

Yes, the "it's free" issue really messes up public charging.

Since there is a limited amount of public charging available, I think it should always be expensive enough that only those who need the energy will make use of it.

A 30 MPG car will need 6 gallons to go 200 miles, call it $15 in gasoline. 60 kWh at 25 cents will be the same. I think that's a fair price and will keep away the freeloaders.

 

[SeanNelson]

Forgive me because I've said this before, but the map of Superchargers is totally impressive, but it doesn't mean squat to me. It's like the cellular maps showing coverage all over North Dakota. I care that the car handles what I do 95-99% of the time. A 200 mile class EV will do that easily without ever relying on any public charging.

I don't care about North Dakota either, but I would like to go on some trips around BC and down the west coast. I'm going to hang on to my Prius C for a while to make sure I'm comfortable that the Bolt can do that or that I'm OK with renting a car for it. But I'd prefer to be able to do it in the Bolt.

And even though I don't care about North Dakota, I'm sure North Dakotans do - so when they plead with GM to do something about the charging network I can empathize with them.

A 30 MPG car will need 6 gallons to go 200 miles, call it $15 in gasoline. 60 kWh at 25 cents will be the same. I think that's a fair price and will keep away the freeloaders.

I completely agree. I don't mind paying - but boy oh boy those charging networks need to get their acts together so that I can drive up to any EV charger and just swipe my credit card to juice up. This silly business about having to know which networks you're going to use and having to sign up in advance for each and every one of them is a real barrier to EV adoption IMHO.

 

[mbepic]

I think the Charger Networks will come fairly quickly once demand (volume of EV's) hits the roads; I think you are now seeing gov'ts providing incentive monies to purchase an EV and this iincludes a network of chargers put out there in conjunction with private entities. If some of the large restaurant chains get onboard they will begin the ball rolling in the private sector.......Dennys, Crackle Barrel, etc. Hotels will realize the marketing advantage to installing these chargers and making them available to EV guests. Even Costco and Lowes, Home Depot should get onboard.

I'm not sure that the Chevy BOLT EV will have the 'fast charger' DC option available so 240v may be the only way to charge at a reasonable speed. Does anyone know the amount of charge that can be accomplished in 1/2 to 1 hour?

 

[DucRider]

I'm not sure that the Chevy BOLT EV will have the 'fast charger' DC option available so 240v may be the only way to charge at a reasonable speed. Does anyone know the amount of charge that can be accomplished in 1/2 to 1 hour?

The Bolt will have a 50 kW DCFC (CCS) option available.

GM Specs:
Charging Times
120 V: Available with standard cordset
240 V: 50 miles of range in less than 2 hrs.
SAE Combo DC Fast Charge: 90 miles in 30 minutes

As to how much charge in an hour (240v ) the Bolt on-board charger is capable of up to 7.2 kW (or ~25 miles of range). Some factors that affect this are temperature (ambient and battery pack), current State of Charge %, and of course the capabilities of the EVSE (some are 3.3 kW or 6.6 kW, for example).
The BMS (Battery Management System) will negotiate with the EVSE and control the charge rate.

 

[ssspinball]

If you look up the history of gas stations, you'll find that car manufactures did in fact partner with energy companies. So if GM partnered with a charging network it wouldn't even be the first time they've been in such an arrangement!

On the economics of chargers: It's true the chargers themselves are not easy to make a profit on. However most gas stations don't make their money from gas either--Most of their money comes from the wildly overpriced stuff in their shops. Since recharging an EV (currently) takes a lot longer than refilling with gas, places like restaurants and retail should be able to attract more business from EV drivers who are going to want to do something other than sit in their car for 30 minutes.

 

[rsewill]

I used to think GM was making a mistake not building out a charging station network.

Now I'm not so sure.

I think I prefer the idea pushed by the government we get the car manufactures, utilities, interested parties, working together to build out the infrastructure.

I like the idea having the government encourage a 350 KwH goal for charging rate. I don't care if that goal can't be done now.
I'm hopeful it can be done in the near future.

I don't have an electric car yet (my financial situation makes the upfront cost of an electric car prohibitive so I must save money if I plan to own an electric car), but I've installed PlugShare so I can read some of the comments of PlugShare users who do own electric cars.

I'm left with the impression there are some very nice car dealers willing to have electric charging stations and willing to let anyone, including electric car owners who own competitor's cars, charge. There are also some car dealers who are less than nice, who only want electric car owners charging if the electric cars are a certain model or bought from the dealer. This suggests to me, we need electric vehicle charging stations owned and operated by people who don't have a vested interest in what type of electric car we drive.

We have some car dealers in the area who are near restaurants. Most are not. I do not feel car dealers are well situated, in general, if we need to spend thirty minutes to an hour waiting for the charging process to complete.

I wish state laws could be changed so charging stations could be built at rest areas along the highways.

I feel the people most in need of having electric vehicle charging stations are the people who operate the gas station/convenience store/restaurants at the freeway exits and along the small town highways. I don't know the availability of electricity at those locations. I don't know the upfront costs of building the electric vehicle charging station infrastructure, which would include not only the cost of the station itself, but also the cost of getting the electricity to the station.

Maybe GM made the right decision waiting so GM could be part of this consortium that builds out the infrastructure. I honestly don't know.

 

[DucRider]

...
I don't have an electric car yet (my financial situation makes the upfront cost of an electric car prohibitive so I must save money if I plan to own an electric car)

I don't know where you're located, but you can very likely find a used LEAF with Quick Charging for under $10K, and you may find it;s cheaper than fueling (and maintaining) an older ICE. Might be worth looking in to. I entered used LEAF <$10k into cars.com and it's showing 342 matches.