Bolt "must have" features...IMO

[michael]

Key performance requirements in my opinion:

200 mile nominal range, 150 miles safely in reasonably anticipated conditions (110 F daytime with air conditioning, 10 F winters with heat running full)

Heat-pump type heating (not resistive)

10 kW level 2 charging (level 3 desirable but not a must)

Liquid battery thermal management. Aggressive cooling profile (ideally keep batteries below 80 F) (Volt quite good at this. Ford OK. Nissan blows)

Conservative use of battery capacity (use limited portion of charge window like Volt, preserve battery lifetime)

3 position rear seat

Effective integration between GPS route planning and battery charge/distance remaining (Ford does a good job of this, absent in Volt)

Do this at a reasonable price and take over the EV business

 

[marta]

I can agree with most of those - the last one isn't a must-have for me. I don't care if they take over the EV market, I just want one at a good price

3 position rear seat not important for me - my kids are made of rubber, they'll be fine in whatever position the seat comes in.

 

[michael]

I don't need the third rear seat either, but I know many people who rejected the Volt due to the bucket rear seat configuration.

 

[DaveN007]

The challenge will be hitting that 150 mile range in truly cold weather. My garaged Fiat 500e sees a reduction of 20 percent during the winter and it rarely gets lower than 40 degrees where I live. There is one guy who shipped a car to Wisconsin and he sees less than 50 mile range (normal is 85-100) in sub-freezing temps. That is a reduction of more than 40 percent.

If all 60 kWh are accessible and you assume a modest 3.5 miles per kWh then you get 210 miles, but you will need to drive in the slow lane the whole time. If you live where average highway speeds are 75ish, that consumes a lot more power.

Even on a 75 degree day.

I will guess that real world range will dip to the 120's in really cold places. That is worst case scenario and is actually really, really good.

60 kwh + DC fast charging should cover a lot of miles that most people drive.

I can't wait to get a Bolt in my garage.

BTYW, as far as heat is concerned...if "resistive heat" means "hairdryer onboard" like the Fiat 500e, then I want THAT. I am willing to trade "instant heat"...I mean it is INSTANT...for efficiency over time. Getting in your car for a 10 minute drive somewhere is nice when you don't have to wait for car to "warm up". But that is based on my usage profile, of course. I don't drive my 500e 50 miles to work each day in the snow.

 

[gmvoltguy]

Have we heard anything about fast charging in the Bolt yet?

I agree that quick heat is a plus for short drives in cold winter weather! Although I guess as we get into longer range EVs, people with longer daily commutes will be buying them, and then if the heater sucks range quickly in order to have fast/instant heat, then it becomes an issue. Maybe we'll need an option for 'fast heat' which pulls lots of power, or 'normal heat' so that people can still get maximum range...

 

[DucRider]

Have we heard anything about fast charging in the Bolt yet?

I agree that quick heat is a plus for short drives in cold winter weather! Although I guess as we get into longer range EVs, people with longer daily commutes will be buying them, and then if the heater sucks range quickly in order to have fast/instant heat, then it becomes an issue. Maybe we'll need an option for 'fast heat' which pulls lots of power, or 'normal heat' so that people can still get maximum range...

1) 50kW CCS
2) Heat/Cold weather range: Heated seats are a must, and it would be silly to deliver this car without a heat pump. Kia did a ton of cold weather testing (Norway??) on the Soul EV and included things like the ability to set it for "Driver Only" mode to direct heat only where needed. A heated windshield is a big plus (e-Golf) as it prevents needing to run the heater and AC at the same time to prevent fogging. I'm hoping they took some of the features from the Spark EV like heating/cooling the battery pack automatically when connected to L2 to keep it closer to optimal temp.

 

[DaveN007]

Have we heard anything about fast charging in the Bolt yet?

I agree that quick heat is a plus for short drives in cold winter weather! Although I guess as we get into longer range EVs, people with longer daily commutes will be buying them, and then if the heater sucks range quickly in order to have fast/instant heat, then it becomes an issue. Maybe we'll need an option for 'fast heat' which pulls lots of power, or 'normal heat' so that people can still get maximum range...

1) 50kW CCS
2) Heat/Cold weather range: Heated seats are a must, and it would be silly to deliver this car without a heat pump. Kia did a ton of cold weather testing (Norway??) on the Soul EV and included things like the ability to set it for "Driver Only" mode to direct heat only where needed. A heated windshield is a big plus (e-Golf) as it prevents needing to run the heater and AC at the same time to prevent fogging. I'm hoping they took some of the features from the Spark EV like heating/cooling the battery pack automatically when connected to L2 to keep it closer to optimal temp.

How has you Fit EV experience been? My 500e lease is up in October, and I am inclined to get another one if Bolt timing doesn't work out.

 

[DucRider]

How has you Fit EV experience been? My 500e lease is up in October, and I am inclined to get another one if Bolt timing doesn't work out.

Fit Ev has been great. Flaky Bluetooth connection required a module replacement, and they'll do the airbag in a month or two when they get parts, but no problems with the drive train or batteries. No loss of range has been reported on the forum by any owners, even at 55K miles.

They are sending them back out for another 2 years at lease end. $199/month $0 down, unlimited miles, comp & collision insurance (it's technically a Honda America Fleet Car), all maintenance, 32 amp Leviton EVSE. http://automobiles.honda.com/fit-ev/faq.aspx

It's possible they will drop the price as the market changes with longer range EV's coming out. I'm debating whether to extend or not and will make the call as the time gets closer. Could replace the Fit EV with the Bolt, or extend the Fit lease and use the Bolt to replace our hybrid and become 100% electric.

 

[roguenode]

#1 for me is ccs fast charging availability, which looks pretty poor in terms of traveling outside of a best case 100 mile radius max in my area.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Key performance requirements in my opinion:

200 mile nominal range, 150 miles safely in reasonably anticipated conditions (110 F daytime with air conditioning, 10 F winters with heat running full)

Heat-pump type heating (not resistive)

Yup

10 kW level 2 charging (level 3 desirable but not a must)

I'm the opposite - CCS is a must. Level 2 charging > 3.3kW is a nice-to-have. I will either charge this car overnight in my garage (in which case 3.3kW is plenty) or on the road (in which case 10kW is not enough). Also, why stop at 10kW? The J1772 standard goes up to 80A/240V (19.2kW).

Liquid battery thermal management. Aggressive cooling profile (ideally keep batteries below 80 F) (Volt quite good at this. Ford OK. Nissan blows)

Conservative use of battery capacity (use limited portion of charge window like Volt, preserve battery lifetime)

This is highly dependent on where you live and use the car. In the northeast, my Leaf's battery is holding up reasonably well. I expect my Ford to hold up even better. I can manage the temperature just by changing my behavior (driving conservatively in the heat, charging only at night). That's impossible if you live in Arizona, though, and a good TMS is a must.

Similarly, battery capacity can be managed. I'm ok with a "distance charge" mode that allows you to use most of the 60kWh battery. But I want a means to set it to charge to much less on a daily basis. I could probably charge to 60% every night, and still never dip below 30%. That's 18kWh, which is more than my Leaf's battery holds with an 80% charge.

3 position rear seat

Effective integration between GPS route planning and battery charge/distance remaining (Ford does a good job of this, absent in Volt)

Nice-to-haves. I have a family of 4 and don't currently need a 5th seat. Although I suppose a 3rd child could come along at any time.

Intelligent route planning is nice, but I'm enough of a nerd to do it myself.

 

[WetEV]

Key performance requirements in my opinion:

200 mile nominal range, 150 miles safely in reasonably anticipated conditions (110 F daytime with air conditioning, 10 F winters with heat running full)

With a 200 mile nominal range, the "no worries" range is less than 100 miles in most climates, and somewhat less in very cold places.

Allow for at least a 20% buffer for unexpected events.

Allow for battery at EOL (End Of Life) which is often quoted as around 30% capacity loss. In Seattle climate, this should be 10 years or more, will be less in warmer places even with thermal management.

Allow for headwind, snow or water on road, and cold temperatures. At least another 20%.

All the above can and should be adjusted to your location and requirements. For example, if you don't plan on owning a car until battery EOL or beyond, use a larger percentage for battery at end of ownership.

200*0.8*0.7*0.8 = 89.6 miles.

 

[Devin]

Key performance requirements in my opinion:

200 mile nominal range, 150 miles safely in reasonably anticipated conditions (110 F daytime with air conditioning, 10 F winters with heat running full)

With a 200 mile nominal range, the "no worries" range is less than 100 miles in most climates, and somewhat less in very cold places.

Allow for at least a 20% buffer for unexpected events.

Allow for battery at EOL (End Of Life) which is often quoted as around 30% capacity loss. In Seattle climate, this should be 10 years or more, will be less in warmer places even with thermal management.

Allow for headwind, snow or water on road, and cold temperatures. At least another 20%.

All the above can and should be adjusted to your location and requirements. For example, if you don't plan on owning a car until battery EOL or beyond, use a larger percentage for battery at end of ownership.

200*0.8*0.7*0.8 = 89.6 miles.

With that kind of range calculation why should anybody buy any EV at all? This is not indicative of the real-world ownership experience of most drivers. Cabin pre-heating alone eliminates a significant portion of the range penalty of winter conditions in relatively mild climates like Seattle and with a heat pump instead of a resistive heater the overall impact will be nowhere near as dire as you suggest.

The impact of winter conditions on an EV does not scale proportionally with the size of the battery pack as there is only so much overhead needed to operate things like heating, wipers, etc. It seems as though you're extrapolating data from an EV with a small pack, like a LEAF and applying it to a long-range EV like the Bolt or Tesla, which is not an accurate methodology.

The 20% buffer is arbitrary and for a Bolt would represent 40 miles. I think a flat 15 miles is a more fair buffer because in most urban areas with a decent concentration of EV drivers you're not going to be more than 15 miles from a charging station. If you're comfortable with a 15 mile buffer on a LEAF (EPA range of 73 miles X .2 = 14.6) then you should be comfortable with the same buffer in any other vehicle. The use of a vehicle with a larger battery does not change the relative distance to a charger.

I suppose I take issue with the premise, however, that one should choose a vehicle based on the worst-case scenario. If that were the case then one would invariably have to choose a vehicle with tank-tread continuous tracks, at least 8 seats, and the capacity to carry 500 gallons of diesel. This is impractical. It's sort of like how many people uninformed and hostile to EVs suggest that EVs will never work because they don't have the ability to travel 500 miles in one shot and recharge in less than 5 minutes for a purchase price of $20,000. It's an unreasonable expectation, and the (very few) people who genuinely need such capability on a regular basis should indeed look at a different vehicle rather than impose those needs on EVs as a technological category.

 

[DucRider]

Cabin pre-heating alone eliminates a significant portion of the range penalty of winter conditions in relatively mild climates like Seattle and with a heat pump instead of a resistive heater the overall impact will be nowhere near as dire as you suggest.

It is extremely unlikely the Bolt will sport a heat pump, as Chevy has made no mention of it (and it is a desirable feature with a very definite benefit). We have lots of detail on things like the rear camera mirror, size of the touch screen, etc. If they're not bragging about having a heat pump, then they don't have a heat pump.

The impact of winter conditions on an EV does not scale proportionally with the size of the battery pack as there is only so much overhead needed to operate things like heating, wipers, etc. It seems as though you're extrapolating data from an EV with a small pack, like a LEAF and applying it to a long-range EV like the Bolt or Tesla, which is not an accurate methodology.

I disagree completely. If your efficiency drops from 5 miles/kWh to 3.5 because of heat, wipers, lights, dense air, wet roads, etc., why does a bigger pack improve that? Are you implying that those range sucking conditions somehow have no effect after 20 kWh of the pack is used?

 

[Devin]

Cabin pre-heating alone eliminates a significant portion of the range penalty of winter conditions in relatively mild climates like Seattle and with a heat pump instead of a resistive heater the overall impact will be nowhere near as dire as you suggest.

It is extremely unlikely the Bolt will sport a heat pump, as Chevy has made no mention of it (and it is a desirable feature with a very definite benefit). We have lots of detail on things like the rear camera mirror, size of the touch screen, etc. If they're not bragging about having a heat pump, then they don't have a heat pump.

Rear camera mirrors and large touch screens are things that look good for marketing. A heat pump is an important feature only to those who are familiar with the details of EVs (mainly existing drivers) and know what a difference they make. For example, the LEAF's heat pump is only mentioned as the line item "Hybrid Heater System" under the specs page, it is not mentioned in the features section of Nissan's marketing page: http://www.nissan.ca/en/electric-cars/leaf/features/

BMW only says that the heating system is 30% more efficient than a conventional electric heater, but doesn't call it by name: http://www.bmw.ca/en/all-models/bmw-i/i3/2015/drive.html

FWIW, Kia does show this in a section on the Soul EV's marketing page but it's a few levels in (section 4 -> climate -> heat pump): http://www.kia.ca/soulev?sourceid=hp-dropdown

The impact of winter conditions on an EV does not scale proportionally with the size of the battery pack as there is only so much overhead needed to operate things like heating, wipers, etc. It seems as though you're extrapolating data from an EV with a small pack, like a LEAF and applying it to a long-range EV like the Bolt or Tesla, which is not an accurate methodology.

I disagree completely. If your efficiency drops from 5 miles/kWh to 3.5 because of heat, wipers, lights, dense air, wet roads, etc., why does a bigger pack improve that? Are you implying that those range sucking conditions somehow have no effect after 20 kWh of the pack is used?

In all the EVs I've owned the heater uses the most energy when it is initially trying to bring the car from ambient temperature to the desired temperature - maintenance of that temperature requires less energy and as such the range impact of heating will be lower over the course of a longer drive once desired temperature is initially reached.

I shouldn't have included wiper use in this example as wiper use is a constant - but this draws little energy compared with the heater. Increased rolling resistance due to water on the road is also a constant tied to miles driven. I don't argue with that, I'm only disputing the extrapolation of data about the impacts on a short range EV which is inherently unable to make a longer trip in extreme cold.

My biggest issue with the prior calculation was, however, the arbitrary buffer and the questionable logic that one should assume the Bolt to be a 89-mile car in the winter when it's only a series of very extreme conditions that would lead to that scenario. Taking the artificial buffer out, the car should be good for 120 miles, but I suspect more in reality (i.e. speed is usually reduced in severe rain, compensating somewhat for the increased rolling resistance of water).

 

[WetEV]

With a 200 mile nominal range, the "no worries" range is less than 100 miles in most climates, and somewhat less in very cold places.

With that kind of range calculation why should anybody buy any EV at all?

Well, I did. Twice.

I'd claim a list of different ranges for an EV, from "no worries" to "plan, hypermile, new car, good weather, flat roads, no traffic" range, which for the Bolt would be near 300 miles. Which range is the "real world range"? Depends on details, of course.

"No worries" range is for someone that wants to own the car for 10 years, only charge at home, and just drive without ever thinking about range in all weather. That's not the typical EV owner today, but will be more common, once EVs become much more common.

Sure, if you are willing to rely on public charging on bad weather days, or even everyday, or you want to plan a much longer trip, you can. I've taken the Leaf up to Vancouver CA. 232 miles in a day, with multiple DCQC sessions, and one leg where the Nav system warned me "might be too far".

Cabin pre-heating alone eliminates a significant portion of the range penalty of winter conditions in relatively mild climates like Seattle and with a heat pump instead of a resistive heater the overall impact will be nowhere near as dire as you suggest.

A heat pump removed much of the reason to preheat the car in Seattle area. The cabin warms up quick enough, and the energy used is minor. (FFE and Leaf 2012 vs Leaf 2014). Notice, however, that in very cold places the heat pump doesn't help.

I suppose I take issue with the premise, however, that one should choose a vehicle based on the worst-case scenario. .. It's an unreasonable expectation, and the (very few) people who genuinely need such capability on a regular basis should indeed look at a different vehicle rather than impose those needs on EVs as a technological category.

Yes, very few people have round trip commutes beyond 100 miles. However if you do, and also you live in a cold place, and also you plan owning your car for a decade or more, and also you don't have reliable workplace charging; then a Bolt doesn't have enough range. Only if all those things are true.

I've seen enough people that planned on commuting in a Leaf or similar EV for a 60 miles round trip have bad experiences. Nissan made this worse by advertising a 100 mile range. However, even a more accurate 80 miles would have been more than is reasonable for many people.

Bolt is advertising 200 miles. It will probably more more like 210 or 220 miles EPA. Some people can count on nearly that range. Some people should halve that range. Depends on what climate, what roads, what time of day, how long you plan on owning the car, and probably more.

 

[DucRider]

I think it will very safely be a 120+mile car in almost all conditions, and most likely 150 in moderate winter conditions.

While it is true the initial "bring it up to temp" takes a bigger bite, most people won't be regularly taking a longer trip because of the bigger battery. Most people have a commute 5 days a week, and the distance doesn't change. They are bringing it up to temp twice a day. Usually once from the garage (and should use preheat) and once from an outdoor location. I agree that they could drive further in a single trip once everything is up to temp, but that's not how most people use or evaluate the range of an EV.

The FIT EV (and many other cars) is prone to windshield fogging, and using both the AC and heat to keep that clear can be a real range drain. The e-Golf has a heated windshield (deleted from the lower cost SE, I believe) for just that reason.

Specific chemistry used in the Lithium Ion Battery seems to also play a role. The Fit EV uses the Toshiba SCiB, which talks about outstanding cold weather performance. If you read the details, it means "SCiB™ exhibits low cycle-life degradation even when it is charged and discharged at -30°C. "
The Fit EV has an ultra-conservative guess-o-meter, and at least one person in the NE reported coming out to a fully charged car in the morning with an estimated range of "0". They did not have it in a garage and it was something like 14 below (F), but still....

The good news about the battery in the Fit is that no owner has reported ANY range loss - and some have done on the order of 57K miles in 3 years.

EV (and battery) manufacturers have big trade offs to make between performance in different conditions - power delivery/recharge/regen rates, heat/cold sensitivity, charge/discharge cycles, etc.

 

[Tessy]

I think the three seats in the back is a must have Lots of people have 3 small kids and until they're grown the space in the back is definitely big enough for them
It makes for a perfect commuter car if you can take all three of your kids

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I agree with many of the items mentioned so far, and here are some more:

Heating in all seats.
Heated steering wheel.
Direct heating windshield defroster.
50kW DC charging minimum.
Flat flush wheels and ultra low rolling resistance tires.
Effective fresh air flow without opening a window.

 

[Aidan]

I must have for me would be the third rear seat I am disappointed though that the Chevy Volt seats do not fold down

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Where did you get that? The rear seats fold down.

But there is not room for a third row.