EVgo DC chargers were horrible up until the beginning of 2018. They're still not perfect, but improvement is being made.

[SeanNelson]

the cost of a kilowatt-hour can certainly vary.

Sorry, I should have been clearer that I was referring to the value of a kWh to the motorist, not the cost. When you're tooling around the boonies in a leased-and-loaded Bolt depreciating at 47 cents a mile, a kWh's value dwarfs its cost.

Well even the value to the motorist can change depending on the circumstances. The value of a kWh to a motorist low on charge and approaching the only charging station in range is a lot higher than to the same motorist with plenty of charge and driving in a forest of L2 and DCFC installations. One could probably build a formula to at least approximate what the motorist would be likely be willing to pay. Indeed, that's exactly the kind of things companies do in order to set the price of their products.

 

[Anonymous]

Ever notice that gas stations next to Interstate exits charge much more than the stations in the middle of the same city?

 

[vrpratt]

My wife and I drove her Bolt from Palo Alto CA to Vancouver BC and back, round trip 2683 miles including side trips to beautiful Yachats on the Oregon coast, Mt St Helens, and Lake Quinault in the Olympic Forest. (I'm currently working on writing up the charging strategies and tactics I used to minimize the hassle of such a long BEV road trip, nearly the width of the continent, but it's competing with a couple of deadlines. The west coast currently has 30 retail H2 stations, and if there were just four more, at Ashland OR, Corvallis OR, Olympia WA, and Vancouver BC, we'd have taken the Mirai to avoid the huge hassle of dealing with BEV charging and still be able to do every one of those side trips. As far as refueling goes, the Mirai and the Bolt are literally day and night!)

Apropos of EVgo, which I found essential for such a long trip, as we approached the Northgate Mall EVgo ChaDeMo/CCS in N Seattle on the way back we noticed on the Plugshare app that it was free, so we stopped there. There was another car there but not plugged in, so we started a 30 minute charge and went to the mall to have lunch. At 15 minutes I checked remotely and saw that charging had stopped. I went back and found our Bolt still connected but with the ChaDeMo in use. Apparently someone (EVgo? the other car?) had shut us off at 6 minutes without taking the trouble to notify us. Fortunately the other car finished up after its half hour. But what should have taken 30 minutes ended up taking closer to 90 minutes. (6 minutes would have filled our Mirai from empty to full.)

Although the delay was the main annoyance, when I looked at the monthly statement later on I noticed that the bill for the 6-minute charge was $6.77 for what would have been about 8 miles of charge (I'd used that charger several times during a 6-day stay in Seattle on the way up a week earlier and it tended to give about 80 miles per hour of charging). This comes to about 85 cents a mile!

On the one hand $6.77 was less than the cost of our lunch. On the other, it would be interesting to know whether anyone here has been charged more than 85 cents a mile by any network, due to someone else. (You can always beat that figure yourself just by shutting off EVgo after say 4 minutes but that would be cheating.)

 

[gpsman]

I'd call to complain about your unauthorized shut off. Almost certainly you will get that 8 minute charge reversed.

 

[vrpratt]

I'd call to complain about your unauthorized shut off. Almost certainly you will get that 8 minute charge reversed.

Did that, thank you. Took ten minutes on the phone to cancel a $6.77 charge (my time is worth more than $40/hr to me). They explained that had the charging time been 5 minutes or less the cancellation would have happened automatically. The extra minute (6 minutes of charging time) resulted in ten minutes on the phone to get it cancelled.

Anyway, as I said it was less than our lunch. $6.77 only becomes a charge worth commenting on when divided by 8 miles, and the only reason I even bothered calling them was to learn more about EVgo's procedures, and to pass that along. (I contested a $10 parking fine in court years ago and got it reduced to $5, purely to learn about the process.)

The fact that EVgo/NRG charges a lot is a plus from the standpoint of how long they're likely to stick around.

 

[Anonymous]

This comes to about 85 cents a mile!

On the one hand $6.77 was less than the cost of our lunch. On the other, it would be interesting to know whether anyone here has been charged more than 85 cents a mile by any network, due to someone else. (You can always beat that figure yourself just by shutting off EVgo after say 4 minutes but that would be cheating.)

Are you suggesting that 85 cents a mile is a bargain?

 

[vrpratt]

This comes to about 85 cents a mile!

On the one hand $6.77 was less than the cost of our lunch. On the other, it would be interesting to know whether anyone here has been charged more than 85 cents a mile by any network, due to someone else. (You can always beat that figure yourself just by shutting off EVgo after say 4 minutes but that would be cheating.)

Are you suggesting that 85 cents a mile is a bargain?

Certainly no bargain had EVgo charged me that for 10,000 miles, and stiffed me for the $8,500 after I complained. But for 8 miles and canceling the charge immediately (no questions asked) when I brought it to their attention, I'm not complaining.

But maybe a better question than mine would have been, what's the most anyone's had to pay EVgo per mile after a legitimate complaint? Say your Bolt got 80 miles for $22 (two half-hour sessions), that comes to $0.275 a mile. That's a reasonably representative EVgo charge, and they certainly won't cancel that if challenged. But with gas at say $3 a gallon, someone with a 30 mpg ICE is paying a mere $0.10 a mile, and even less for Prius owners. That makes EVgo a rip-off compared to gasoline.

What about ChargePoint? On my 2683 miles to Canada and back, not counting the ChargePoint free overnight Level 2 ("destination") charger I used at Mt Shasta (twice, once in each direction), CCS ChargePoint averaged around $0.06 mile.

If your goal is to survive in the DCFC marketplace, EVgo/NRG may have the right idea. But if you want to encourage more drivers to switch from ICEs to BEVs in order to save the planet, then ChargePoint may have the better long-term strategy. EVgo/NRG may be too focused on their quarterly bottom line, a common problem for modern capitalism.

But then again depreciation of these new cars dwarfs those numbers. The newer the (EV) car the safer the planet. Are you willing to pay the depreciation on a new(er) car in order to save the planet more effectively?

The late George Dantzig would have liked that linear programming optimization problem.

 

[user 744]

Remember that ChargePoint has a completely different business model: they sell stations and run the network. The station owners have all kinds of latitude for charging, by the kWh, by time, both, or none.

The charger at my office (owned by the landlord) charges $.20/kWh, with $3/hr after three hours. I'd use it every day except for the free charger at Chili's down the block, funded by National Grid.

 

[marshallinwa]

But then again depreciation of these new cars dwarfs those numbers. The newer the (EV) car the safer the planet. Are you willing to pay the depreciation on a new(er) car in order to save the planet more effectively?

1. Most of the EV's are leased.
2. The high depreciation means a bargain for those in the used car market, especially for those who can't use the federal tax credit.
3. I expect the depreciation to become less of an issue with the longer range EV's.

As noted by Stolenmoment, the ChargePoint model is different from EvGo. It wouldn't surprise me to see more ChargePoint low power DC chargers at the local grocery store and a DC charge option on PHEV's.

 

[michael]

A 24-pack of soft drinks at Costco is about the same price as two bottles at a convenience store. Public charging should be seen largely as an emergency convenience, not as an ongoing source of free or cheap energy.

If one needs the charge to get home, cost is not a concern. Normal charging, for the present, is best done at home, at the workplace if offered, etc. Relying on public charging is not yet practical or economical in many cases.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

1. Most of the EV's are leased.
2. The high depreciation means a bargain for those in the used car market, especially for those who can't use the federal tax credit.

In other words, the car companies are footing the bill for the high depreciation. Except for those of us suckers who actually bought our cars.

 

[WetEV]

Except for those of us suckers who actually bought our cars.

Some of us that actually bought our cars are quite happy with them, and don't care much about the resale price.

 

[sgt1372]

Except for those of us suckers who actually bought our cars.

Some of us that actually bought our cars are quite happy with them, and don't care much about the resale price.

And those of us who leased our cars don't care about the resale price at all.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Except for those of us suckers who actually bought our cars.

Some of us that actually bought our cars are quite happy with them, and don't care much about the resale price.

My statement was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. I very happily own my 2012 Leaf, and have since it was new. I knew it was a risk in 2012, but I was willing to take it. If I go to trade up for a Bolt or Leaf 2 next year, any trade-in I get will just be gravy.

 

[oilerlord]

I very happily own my 2012 Leaf, and have since it was new. I knew it was a risk in 2012, but I was willing to take it. If I go to trade up for a Bolt or Leaf 2 next year, any trade-in I get will just be gravy.

Gravy...because the car has already paid for itself in fuel & maintenance savings? How many miles are on your Leaf?

It's my plan that when I eventually sell my B250e, whatever I receive is "gravy" too - however I think I need to turn ~100K miles on the car before that happens.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

If my car lasts until March and then dies completely, worth $0, it will have had the same cost of ownership as the 2010 Honda Insight (second gen - the 4 door version) that I had and sold for the CMax. That's all told, with fuel, maintenance, depreciation, etc. I'd say that's pretty good since Hondas are low maintenance, and I averaged 43MPG on the Insight, so low fuel cost too.

I currently have 45k miles on the Leaf. Most of my local driving is very short (let's hear it for a 2.25 mile commute!), and I cannot take the Leaf on longer trips.

 

[cyaopec]

I like the 30 minute turn off feature. It prevents the local small battery "charger lice" from hogging a charger and making interstate and intercity travel much more inconvenient for people who are replacing their ICE vehicles with BEVs. A 30 minute wait is already weird enough. Turning it into a 90 minute wait because someone uses the charger for an hour means BEVs have even less of a chance of catching on.

My "charger lice" comment is a bit of a joke. But I know i3 "locals" who live in apartments and tie up the two local EVGo chargers making it harder for people from other parts of Los Angeles from charging when they are coming from LONG distances and need to head up the Grapevine. The 30 minute limit keeps things "reasonable" when you have 4 or 5 BEVS literally waiting in line.

 

[michaellax]

Where is the EVGo you are referring to near the Grapevine? I can only think of Bridgeport Marketplace, which is quite a bit away from the Grapevine. If so, there is a Chevy dealer only a few miles avay that has a DCFC available 24/7.

Would your attitude ("lice") be any different if you knew that both BMW and Nissan financially subsidize EVGo for their use by i3's and Leaf's; and GM does not contribute a dime to EVGo?

 

[cyaopec]

Where is the EVGo you are referring to near the Grapevine? I can only think of Bridgeport Marketplace, which is quite a bit away from the Grapevine. If so, there is a Chevy dealer only a few miles avay that has a DCFC available 24/7.

Would your attitude ("lice") be any different if you knew that both BMW and Nissan financially subsidize EVGo for their use by i3's and Leaf's; and GM does not contribute a dime to EVGo?

Yes, Bridgeport. No charge to charge can often mean "no place to charge" for those doing inter-city travel. But the no charge program only lasts 2 years. I like EVGo. But their habit of placing stations near malls and grocery stores means you do get small battery locals using a scarce resource when they may not really need to. In Carlsbad this weekend it was Hyundai and Kia locals at the charger while getting ice cream for their kids--seriously--I watched them walk back from the Premium Outlets with ice cream in hand. At Bridgeport the complaints came to me from older Leaf commuters having to get behind newly minted i3 owners.

 

[SeanNelson]

Would your attitude ("lice") be any different if you knew that both BMW and Nissan financially subsidize EVGo for their use by i3's and Leaf's; and GM does not contribute a dime to EVGo?

Can't speak for the other poster, but for me: yes - it actually annoys me that BMW and Nissan have a program to subsidize the charging of their vehicles - because subsidized charging means less charger availability.

I don't have a problem for apartment dwellers who don't have a choice, but when you offer a free service or price it below it's value then demand tends to expand to fill capacity. A certain percentage of people are going to use those chargers just to take advantage of the subsidy even when they don't have an actual need for them. That makes those chargers a lot less useful for everyone - including other owners of the subsidized cars.