How Much I Paid for My Bolt

[roundpeg]

Exactly this. Arguing against those that have already gone through this with their own EV purchases, some multiple times across different manufacturers is indeed arguing against historical data.

It is a glorious time to lease an EV and I will surely take advantage of this knowledge and simple math that is well in my favor when my current lease is up next year and probably again when our other car is up in 2018.

Not sure why you want to prolong this discussion when all of these points were already addressed in such detail.

 

[ssspinball]

Not sure why you want to prolong this discussion when all of these points were already addressed in such detail.

Ha! That's exactly what I don't get about your responses. :mrgreen:

 

[zappcatt]

Not sure why you want to prolong this discussion when all of these points were already addressed in such detail.

Ha! That's exactly what I don't get about your responses. :mrgreen:

+1

Trying to use Standard Economic Theory on EV car sales (particularly in CARB states) is flawed.

1) The big SUV/Pickup/Gas guzzler sellers need ZEV credits in order to be able to sell in the state.
2) They do whatever they can to get those credits, either lose money themselves on the cars they sell(Fiat's CEO says it is $14k per car-and then they have lease deals), or buy credits from a 'competitor"?
As was mentioned earlier, Tesla made over $138 Million dollars by selling these credits to competitors. Do you think that Chevy would rather "lose money" on a car lease to people who feel they got a great deal via an amazing lease(Ask any Spark EV leasie) or just throw that money to Tesla for the same credit?

With most of the EV leases being discussed, the Manufacturer is losing the money on the lease. A third party leasor(Costco/Credit Union) would probably offer a much higher lease.

Now that the Bolt lease details have been "leaked", it sounds like they are hoping the early adopters will stick with the purchase even without an amazing lease. I am looking to get a new car, and hoped to get a Bolt(even though the increased range is of limited, or no benefit to me) but according to http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/ the Bolt would actually cost me more than the BMW i3 which has a $10k higher MSRP.

I would love to be in a position to wait 6 months to see if they drop the rates, or give more of the Federal Credit up front, but unfortunately I will probably be buying this month.

 

[roundpeg]

Welcome late arrival to this discussion. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to read the preceding pages of posts first.

 

[tedkidd]

I agree with Michael on leasing.

You are right about equivalent incentives being available to a buyer, but...

1. In the case the of the $7500, there is no risk that it will be denied by the IRS or that someone's tax status will prevent them from taking advantage of it. It's a done deal

2. The biggest issue is the fact that the actual values are far below the agreed upon residual. This is the leasing company's problem. If you buy it, it's yours

3. The issue of battery fade is not well recognized. When I bought my Focus, people on the Focus Electric board were congratulating themselves, believing the fact that the Focus has a liquid cooled battery would allow it to last for many years. It's much better than the Leaf, but the battery still fades with use.

1. If you have $7,500.00 in federal tax liability, the chances of the credit being denied by the IRS or taken by somebody else (?) are zero. If you don't have that level of tax liability, or don't know if you will, you might well be better off letting the leasing company take the credit.

2. So what I am hearing is that EV car buyers, including some who've owned a few, understand the residual values of the cars far better than the companies that finance tens of thousands of them every year. On the scale of unlikely to likely the meter does not budge. What is actually happening here with little doubt is the manufacturer is passing an incentive along to the leasing company, an incentive that may well have been available to you directly. As a lessee you are not seeing it except as an inflated residual, but trust me, it's there, and the leasing company is not taking a bath on tens of thousands of EVs.

3. Again, this assumes leasing companies are stupid to begin with, and even after years and tens of thousands of experiences leasing these cars, never learn. That's quite a theory. It doesn't move my likelihood meter off the pin either.

There have been numerous reports of the I RS denying the tax credit. In some cases there was an IRS error, in some cases a dealer had claimed the credit for the car. Even if successfully resolved, it's a hassle

Yes. I understood the future residual value of the car better than Ford Credit did.. That's why they now are sitting with a Focus worth maybe $7000 and I'm not.

But if you prefer to buy rather than lease OK by me. If you can find a way to get that $10k discrepancy between my residual and the current value of the car, you are a much better buyer than I or anyone I know.

Again, I agree with Michael. I've seen Fear, ignorance, and inelasticity of thought around leasing cost people big. This depreciation risk may not have been obvious immediately, but by 2014 with the Leaf buy downs it became plain as day. With a little thought it makes sense,... these cars are more tech than equipment, particularly with these shorter range cars that OBVIOUSLY are going have very uncertain and probably accelerated depreciation as newer, better, longer range alternatives, with lower prices, enter the marketplace. (Think "early flat screen TV's.")

And that volatility/uncertainty hasn't yet left this market.

People who emotionally decide "I want to own" are fools. Full stop.

Leasing doesn't mean you can't own. Part of the deal is that not only can you buy the car at the end of a lease, you get it for a predetermined residual value. So if the car's value is greater than your residual you get a deal. The you "do lots of miles" is a nonsensical argument for not leasing. You can simply buy at the end and avoid mileage fees if you are way over your limit. But, if the car is worth less than the residual after the mileage fees, that's NOT YOUR PROBLEM! You get the luxury to do the math at the end and see what your best options are.

A big key is, if something unexpected occurs you can turn the car back. You DON'T have to buy it.

This is not a highly complicated feature, so not being able to factor it into your decision matrix is kinda pitiful. It's not ignorance to embrace unexplored emotion when making large financial commitments, that's stupidity. Being able to walk away from a Leaf or I3 or Mercedes or Spark that's value has completely tanked after 3 years has been of huge value to people. That's actually conservative critical thinking.

That said, some leases are a ripoff. Maybe the rate is usurious. Maybe there are abusive fees. Doing the numbers both ways and understanding these issues allows for an informed decision. It's just math. Do the math.

 

[roundpeg]

If you don't understand that when you lease your entire federal tax credit goes straight to the leasing company, which, out of the limited goodness of their hearts they may return to you, in part, in the form of an inflated residual or reduced capitalization, then you are a fool, full stop.

If you don't know how much of that tax credit you could put in your own pocket, in cash, then you are a fool, full stop.

If you don't at least ask whether the manufacturer is offering equal value incentives to cash buyers as they are to leasers, then you are a fool, full stop.

And most importantly, if you honestly believe you can outsmart the leasing companies playing their game on their home court, then I've got a bridge for sale, cheap.

The math is all in. Leases are fine for people who (1) can't afford to buy, (2) can't claim the entire tax credit, (3) have always had car payments and can't imagine being without them, or (4) look forward to owning a new car every few years.

Believe it or don't, but not everyone is in any of those categories. Those people aren't fools, in fact they might very well be more financially capable than the people who do fit into those categories.

 

[leodoggie]

The irony in these arguments is that leasing and buying are both correct depending on your own individual criteria. Calling people foolish is counter productive, this is one of the most civil forums out there, let's keep it like that.

The exchange of ideas and information is extremely useful, so please keep those flowing.

 

[SeanNelson]

People who emotionally decide "I want to own" are fools. Full stop.

That definition pretty much covers anyone who buys more car (or anything else, for that matter) than they really need. People buy luxury cars all the time, paying far more than necessary compared to more spartan models. They are not generally called fools for doing so. And IMHO neither should someone who buys an EV, even if they buy it early before discounts are given.

I would reserve the word "fools" for those who buy more than they need when they can't afford it and get into financial difficulty as a result.

 

[roundpeg]

The irony in these arguments is that leasing and buying are both correct depending on your own individual criteria. Calling people foolish is counter productive, this is one of the most civil forums out there, let's keep it like that.

The exchange of ideas and information is extremely useful, so please keep those flowing.

I agree entirely.

A lot of this discussion is repetitious. I've tried not to be drawn into circular arguments that don't acknowledge what's been said already. My apologies for not always succeeding.

 

[DucRider]

The math is all in.

Not for me. I have not yet seen anything other than speculative calculators - from 3rd parties and on GM's site. I need to see a written offer with hard numbers for MY Bolt, in MY state, with MY credit rating, etc.
The GM calculator is too generic and leaves much of the detail as "to be determined at lease signing".

When my Bolt comes in (currently in transit) and I have a chance to test drive it, then it's time to look at the numbers. They will work for both me and the dealer or they won't (whether leasing or purchasing). If I (or my wife) don't like the car, what they would charge for it matters not at all.
If we do like it, we'll look at the numbers for both lease and purchase. If they are looking to get every penny they can off the early orders (possible), I'll wait. I can renew my Fit EV lease as a month to month and when the initial flurry dies down, I'll likely get a better deal.
I'm hoping GM wants to come out of the gate strong and provides a reasonable lease (I'm leaning that way), but they may wait (and so will I).

The Bolt has to compete with $199/month, unlimited miles, maintenance and insurance (comp and collision with $0 deductible) included. Will the Bolt be a better EV? Yes. Will it be worth (to me) twice as much or more? Unlikely.

 

[roundpeg]

We have seen more than that, actually. In any event, the parameters of this discussion were fully established in the many previous pages of posts. So again this is the repetitious and circular argument I am trying to avoid.

FWIW, I started this thread on a completely different topic but it rapidly bird walked to this one. So if anyone would care to return it to its original purpose that would be more than fine with me.

 

[leodoggie]

That is why this forum is so useful, my TPW is 12/5, so I am hopeful that by the time my Bolt arrives, people would have posted real numbers for purchases and leases. I have sat in a Bolt and fiddled with a few knobs, but my wife and I have not driven it yet, so it is pure speculation for us too. I for one am eagerly awaiting forum members driving evaluations.

 

[tedkidd]

If you don't understand that when you lease your entire federal tax credit goes straight to the leasing company, which, out of the limited goodness of their hearts they may return to you, in part, in the form of an inflated residual or reduced capitalization, then you are a fool, full stop.

(do the math and see dummy)

If you don't know how much of that tax credit you could put in your own pocket, in cash, then you are a fool, full stop.

(Impressive grasp of the obvious)

If you don't at least ask whether the manufacturer is offering equal value incentives to cash buyers as they are to leasers, then you are a fool, full stop.

(even more impressive grasp of the obvious)

And most importantly, if you honestly believe you can outsmart the leasing companies playing their game on their home court, then I've got a bridge for sale, cheap.

(lease companies make money the same way banks do - they charge fees and earn interest. It's a competitive marketplace so charging too much will be uncompetitive. Yes, math will show you their total take, and you should figure that out before making a decision. Don't try to claim the point I was making as your own.)

The math is all in. Leases are fine for people who (1) can't afford to buy, (2) can't claim the entire tax credit, (3) have always had car payments and can't imagine being without them, or (4) look forward to owning a new car every few years.

(You presume to know all the reasons people might want to lease, yet only come up with 4? How about "have a lower car payment?", "not be exposed to capital risk." Etc....)

Believe it or don't, but not everyone is in any of those categories. Those people aren't fools, in fact they might very well be more financially capable than the people who do fit into those categories.

Why does this sound like you are someone who has made a mistake, and has so little self esteem they can't acknowledge it? Why does it feel you are a dishonest person who creates strawmen to "win" arguments, rather than someone who provides perspective to broadly inform others that they can make individually tailored decisions?

Oh yeah, because they are making a bunch of unsubstantiated claims about "what the deal is" and "how it steals your tax credit" before the car is even available and these numbers are known. You are dismissive in your language about leasing rather than honest about possible benefits like "have a lower car payment?", "not be exposed to capital risk", and "would prefer to drive cars that are under warranty."

I don't think anyone is claiming leasing would be better for you, that would require a great deal of detail. We are claiming you are an incompetent advisor of others because of your inability to see beyond your personal bias and recommend away from your personal decisions. Seems your ego and esteem won't allow it.

I and others are calling you out on this, not on whether leasing or buying is better.

In fact I could argue either depending on circumstances and AS I HAVE SUGGESTED, my advice is - think deeply on the features and benefits of both and "do the math".

.

 

[SparkE]

If you don't understand that when you lease your entire federal tax credit goes straight to the leasing company, which, out of the limited goodness of their hearts they may return to you, in part, in the form of an inflated residual or reduced capitalization, then you are a fool, full stop.

If you don't know how much of that tax credit you could put in your own pocket, in cash, then you are a fool, full stop.

If you don't at least ask whether the manufacturer is offering equal value incentives to cash buyers as they are to leasers, then you are a fool, full stop.

And most importantly, if you honestly believe you can outsmart the leasing companies playing their game on their home court, then I've got a bridge for sale, cheap.

The math is all in. Leases are fine for people who (1) can't afford to buy, (2) can't claim the entire tax credit, (3) have always had car payments and can't imagine being without them, or (4) look forward to owning a new car every few years.

Believe it or don't, but not everyone is in any of those categories. Those people aren't fools, in fact they might very well be more financially capable than the people who do fit into those categories.

(1) I can very easily afford to buy. Every car (except my EV) that I have acquired at a dealer I bought, and even paid cash (or check) at purchase time.

(2) I can claim the entire tax credit

(3) Had never had a car payment (before lease of the EV)

(4) I generally keep my cars until they die - current (non-EV) vehicles are 10, 15, and 21 years old.

I still leased my EV for many of the 'pro-' reasons stated here. I really wanted to try an EV, and the total cost over 3 years will add up to about $2600 - less than the sales tax on the purchase of that car would have cost me. So it was very cheap to lease, and I'll be able to decide 2 years from now whether to buy my car or return it. (I'll probably return it and buy a used EV, if prices end up where I think they will.) Heck, if they'll allow me to continue leasing at the same low, low rate when the lease is up, I may hang onto it a little longer (depending on what else is available).

 

[roundpeg]

I have already addressed all of these points, in detail, elsewhere in the many pages of this thread (which I suppose once again I will have take pains to point out was started by me on a completely different topic). So there is no need or justification for "calling me out" on anything. I will not participate in this any further. If someone would like to discuss this topic elsewhere without being rude, then fine. But this one is more than done for me.

Unless maybe someone would actually like to discuss "How Much I Paid for My Bolt."

 

[DucRider]

Unless maybe someone would actually like to discuss "How Much I Paid for My Bolt."

AFIK, no one has actually paid for their Bolt since none have been delivered. I have yet to even discuss price with my dealer - pretty pointless until they get the car, I've had a chance to drive it, and we can see what finance/lease programs (if any) GM has in place.

 

[SparkE]

I have already addressed all of these points, in detail, elsewhere in the many pages of this thread (which I suppose once again I will have take pains to point out was started by me on a completely different topic). So there is no need or justification for "calling me out" on anything. I will not participate in this any further. If someone would like to discuss this topic elsewhere without being rude, then fine. But this one is more than done for me.

Unless maybe someone would actually like to discuss "How Much I Paid for My Bolt."

You never addressed 'I pay less to lease my current EV for 3 years than what simply the sales tax would have been if I had bought a new car'...

But fine. Leases work for some and aren't a good idea for others - sometimes it DOES make sense to lease even if you are a cheap bastard like me. MY lease was fantastic for me, and saved me money. Not only do I get it for less than sales tax, my monthly payment is less than I spent on monthly gas on the old car. My only issue now is that me & the wife argue about who gets to drive it on any given day. :mrgreen:

 

[GetOffYourGas]

With all the reports of Bolts being produced and shipped, I'm surprised we haven't heard of anyone taking delivery yet (and hence, able to answer the question posed by this thread). I'm going to assume that GM is just because very cautious WRT QC.

I wonder if they will make a big deal out of the "first" Bolt delivery, like was done for the first Volt and Leaf. On the one hand, it's been done. EVs are now relatively available. On the other hand, the Bolt is a huge step forward. It's good to celebrate success.

 

[leodoggie]

I agree, people have reported TPW of 11/14, surely those bolts would have arrived at the dealerships by now. But perhaps because of Thanksgiving, QA etc they may have been delayed.

 

[zappcatt]

Just another person asking if any of the Bolt "buyers" have heard updated offers from their Dealers who have informed them that it was "in transit".

I have never purchased a car this close to launch before, but was pretty surprised to hear from the dealer that they wanted a refundable deposit, but supposedly had no idea what offers/leasing would be available on the Bolts which are supposed to hit their show floors(and theoretically go straight out the door) within days/weeks.