Purchase / Lease details

[JupiterMoon]

Here is a lease calculator that works for me....and both this and lease Leasehackr give the same results as I get.

http://www.leaseguide.com/calc/

So I'm not sure how they figure out that calculation you got Wayne.

With the $2500 tax credit and $2000 down going towards your cap cost, the only thing I can think of is that they added the "due at signing" fees to your cap cost.

 

[ang]

All discussions are regarding leasing.

I kept my Dodge truck for 22 years.
I kept my Honda Insight for 16 years.
I have a 2005 Ford EscapeHybrid now.
I have zero car payments and zero to trade in.

Is there any GOOD reason not to keep the Bolt for 10 or 16 years?

Different people have different situations, preferences, and risk tolerances. As mentioned in prior posts, there are those who like to upgrade to the latest technology (e.g. a 350+ mile range EV for the masses) after a few years, or have other reasons to avoid being stuck with an older model EV considering EVs have not retained their resale value well (e.g., major move, growing family, battery degradation raising range anxiety).

Lease deals that transfer the majority if not all of the $7500 federal tax credit to lease holders' benefit, have swayed more customers to lease EVs. Other factors that will help sway towards purchase over lease include:
1) Lease terms that don't transfer enough federal tax incentive to lease holders compared to outright purchasers, and
2) Whether battery EV technology is up to par enough to eliminate range anxiety even after expected battery degradation (e.g., usable as a primary or sole vehicle in the long-run)

Since battery EV technology is still short of the range needed to serve as my primary vehicle, just leasing a Bolt for now.
As for keeping a Bolt for 10-16 years, please consider lithium battery technology is such that degradation is expected over time even if the vehicle is not driven and the battery is kept charged at reasonable states (i.e., not fully charged during the heat of the summer and not depleted during the dead of winter cold). Heat management technology that comes with newer EVs (as opposed to first generation Leafs) certainly helps to mitigate range loss due to high battery temperatures. However, lithium battery technology is still associated with capacity degradation over time, regardless of use.

 

[wwhitney]

So let's see.

$4500 - $3194.38 = $1305.62

They call this "Amt Applied Upfront" which I'm not sure what that means frankly. How do they get this number? What is it based on?

So that number is the first month's payment ($538) plus the registration, doc fee, electronic filing fee, and tire fee ($481), and the tax on the $3194.38 capital cost reduction ($290). At least to within a few dollars.

That's all from leashackr's calculator, it matches the posted numbers with the proper inputs.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[oilerlord]

My Focus Electric was down 22% when I returned it after 3 years/54,000 miles. I definitely think leasing is the way to go.

Bolt should be much better due to large battery not being so heavily stressed as battery in an 80-mile car, but there's no way it will be good to own in 10 years unless the battery is replaced. In 10 years it will be a 150 mile car in a world of 300 or 400 mile cars that recharge in 10 minutes.

I definitely think buying (used) is the way to go. I'm a firm believer that an EV isn't something that needs to be thrown out every 3 years.

My B-class was someone's lease return with only 6000 miles on it. It still smelled new and didn't have a scratch on it. The price I paid essentially worked out to be about the same as the cost of leasing over 36 months. I'll never have a payment, and can put as many miles on it as I like. 50,000 miles from now (if I choose to sell it), I'll still be able to get a few thousand bucks out of it as long as it still runs, or look into doing a DIY battery replacement sourced from a wrecked Tesla.

 

[JupiterMoon]

So let's see.

$4500 - $3194.38 = $1305.62

They call this "Amt Applied Upfront" which I'm not sure what that means frankly. How do they get this number? What is it based on?

So that number is the first month's payment ($538) plus the registration, doc fee, electronic filing fee, and tire fee ($481), and the tax on the $3194.38 capital cost reduction ($290). At least to within a few dollars.

That's all from leashackr's calculator, it matches the posted numbers with the proper inputs.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Ok but how did they calculate the $3194.38? If you can show the calculations in more detail that would be great. I just can't replicate it I get a lower number based on your cap cost reduction. You should be putting the entire $4500 towards cap cost.

Just out of curiousity...$538.11+$365+$80+$481+(EFF?) = $1465.11+EFF...putting it over the $1305.62....so it's very unclear.

 

[wwhitney]

Ok but how did they calculate the $3194.38?

I don't know how they did it, but I did it by iteration on the "downpayment" field on the leasehackr calculator, until the driveoff payment became $2,000.

Just out of curiousity...$538.11+$365+$80+$481+(EFF?) = $1465.11+EFF...putting it over the $1305.62....so it's very unclear.

To be more explicit,

$538 is the first month's payment
$481 is registration fee ($365), doc fee ($80), electronic filing fee ($29), and tire fee ($7)
$290 is tax on the capital redution of $2,500 (GM credit) plus $614.38 (downpayment).

The total is $1309, close to the expected $1306.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JupiterMoon]

Ok but how did they calculate the $3194.38?

I don't know how they did it, but I did it by iteration on the "downpayment" field on the leasehackr calculator, until the driveoff payment became $2,000.

Just out of curiousity...$538.11+$365+$80+$481+(EFF?) = $1465.11+EFF...putting it over the $1305.62....so it's very unclear.

To be more explicit,

$538 is the first month's payment
$481 is registration fee ($365), doc fee ($80), electronic filing fee ($29), and tire fee ($7)
$290 is tax on the capital redution of $2,500 (GM credit) plus $614.38 (downpayment).

The total is $1309, close to the expected $1306.

Cheers, Wayne

That's my point, they are hiding something because the numbers just don't add up.

 

[wwhitney]

That's my point, they are hiding something because the numbers just don't add up.

There's nothing hidden, the numbers match the leasehackr calculator to within $3!

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JupiterMoon]

That's my point, they are hiding something because the numbers just don't add up.

There's nothing hidden, the numbers match the leasehackr calculator to within $3!

Cheers, Wayne

Ok well when I do my calculations I get exactly what leasehackr gets to the penny as well as another site I mentioned earlier. There should be zero discrepancy.

You don't want to iterate (another word for fudge) to your answer because if you're at the dealership and you're busy trying to get your numbers, your position of negotiating strength diminishes quite rapidly. They are sharks and will smell that a mile away.

 

[wwhitney]

Ok well when I do my calculations I get exactly what leasehackr gets to the penny as well as another site I mentioned earlier. There should be zero discrepancy.

I agree in principle, but the leasehackr site seemed to me to be rounding to the whole dollar at various places. A $3 discrepancy doesn't concern me. ($3/month would, not $3 one time).

You don't want to iterate (another word for fudge)

No, iterating isn't fudging, it is how you find out what input gives you the desired output. For example, any lease with a $0 drive-off is going to have a negative CCR. You can make that happen on the leasehackr calculator by entering negative numbers into the CCR, and with just a few iterations, get the driveoff to $0.

If you are needing to do that often enough, then it would be worth finding/making a calculator that has implemented the inverted formulas. One could certainly write a calculator that would let you input the desired drive-off amount, and it would figure out how to proportion that among CCR, first month's payment, registration and other upfront fees, etc. Surely that is how the original lease under discussion was done, the salesperson had a calculator into which could be enter $4,500 drive off payment, and it did the rest.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JupiterMoon]

Ok well when I do my calculations I get exactly what leasehackr gets to the penny as well as another site I mentioned earlier. There should be zero discrepancy.

I agree in principle, but the leasehackr site seemed to me to be rounding to the whole dollar at various places. A $3 discrepancy doesn't concern me. ($3/month would, not $3 one time).

You don't want to iterate (another word for fudge)

No, iterating isn't fudging, it is how you find out what input gives you the desired output. For example, any lease with a $0 drive-off is going to have a negative CCR. You can make that happen on the leasehackr calculator by entering negative numbers into the CCR, and with just a few iterations, get the driveoff to $0.

If you are needing to do that often enough, then it would be worth finding/making a calculator that has implemented the inverted formulas. One could certainly write a calculator that would let you input the desired drive-off amount, and it would figure out how to proportion that among CCR, first month's payment, registration and other upfront fees, etc. Surely that is how the original lease under discussion was done, the salesperson had a calculator into which could be enter $4,500 drive off payment, and it did the rest.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne it's not the discrepancy that worries me. It's the fact that iterating to get the answer that you see online shouldn't have to be done.

Let's say you go to the dealer and they blurt something out as a number. You plug it into your website or spreadsheet and you get a vastly different number (almost always guaranteed since they are always padding something). Your position of strength is now lost because the tool you are using cannot be relied upon at that moment. You need to have a tool in front of you that you are 100% is giving you the correct answer without having to play with the numbers given.

The dealers hate online calculators and won't accept the answers they give. So you have to arm yourself with something more solid. They are full of it and always bring up excuses of some sort. The best thing to do is ask them for every itemized cost on the lease and demand they show you how everything is calculated on their system. They won't like it but then you can figure out with certainty where all the costs are going and you can replicate what they've done in your tool.

 

[wwhitney]

Let's say you go to the dealer and they blurt something out as a number. You plug it into your website or spreadsheet and you get a vastly different number (almost always guaranteed since they are always padding something). Your position of strength is now lost because the tool you are using cannot be relied upon at that moment. You need to have a tool in front of you that you are 100% is giving you the correct answer without having to play with the numbers given.

You may be entirely right about in person negotiations, I don't have much experience at that.

Personally, I wouldn't ever go into the dealer until all the terms are finalized. The physical dealer is just a place to take a test drive, and then later return to sign the paperwork and drive off the car, in my opinion. So when negotiating over email, a delay is not a problem.

If you are negotiating in person and presented with the lease numbers danfoxley posted, and you want to check them with the leasehackr calculator, then you just need to know to zero in on the $3,194.38 "total cap reduction" line. You know GM is offering $2,500 as an incentive, so the difference is the additional cap reduction. You plug $2,500 and $694.38 into the appropriate spots on the leasehackr calculator, as well as all the other critical numbers, and verify that the calculator spits out a driveoff of $2,000 and a monthly payment of $538. You don't need to iterate on the spot.

I agree that it would be useful to also have a calculator that would allow you to input the driveoff of $2,000 and calculate the $694.38 additonal capital cost reduction.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tedkidd]

WW, now that you mention it, last 4 vehicles I bought were negotiated via e-mail (going back to 1998).

If you negotiate in person, expect to get your butt whipped. Even if you take your numbers with you there will be "adds" that come up and throw you off.