Too much regen in D mode

[NeilBlanchard]

I think this is mostly a matter of personal preference. I personally like very aggressive regen, which is very efficient and easy to drive, and even coast, once you get used to it. I've been driving an i3 for 2 years, which has very aggressive regen, and I love it now that I'm used to it. Still haven't been able to test drive a Bolt since they are still very sparse in Michigan, but I'm curious to compare the regen of the Bolt to the i3.

One driving situation that I found the aggressive regen to be almost unsafe though was driving on slippery roads. I had a few scary situations when I drove it in these conditions, while still learning the behavior of the regen brakes. If I took my foot off the accelerator too quickly, the rear end of the vehicle would actually kick out and slide a little. ABS and traction control should have accounted for this but didn't a few times for some reason. Could have been something software related that wasn't working correctly, but it caused a few "Oh sh*%!!" moments. In these situations an option to completely turn off the regen, without putting it in N, would have made for a safer driving situation. Curious how the Bolt acts in these situations driving in D or L mode.

The i3 is the only car with 1-pedal done with a significant "detent" to allow you to coast by holding the accelerator in the "right" position.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

It happens in the Bolt. And the Prius (all variants). Basically neutral means that no electric energy is flowing through the electric motor, either as a generator or as a motor. Just a software bit flip.

Seems more than just a minor software change, no?. Neutral disengages the mechanical linkage to the drive / generation system which is why there wouldn't be any regen when lifting off the throttle or through the brake pedal.

I'm also interested in another's comment about losing 50% of the braking ability in N, does that actually happen with the Bolt? Though there isn't any regen, my car's brakes are still fully operational while the car coasts in N.

No mechanical changes by putting an EV in "neutral". Or even into reverse - it is all programming and electrical control.

 

[redpoint5]

How long before we read about someone in neutral coasting downhill* who inadvertently pushed the button and shoves his car into reverse?

You tell me, since you're the one proclaiming the extreme dangers of a neutral car, which is almost an oxymoron.

Good luck convincing a judge that the intention of the California legislature was to exclude a 1-gear electric car from the provisions of this statute!

Good luck ever finding a case in which someone had to explain the use of N to a judge. Now how about failure to signal? I suppose "I'm Californian" might pass as a condition with some sympathetic judges.

Coasting in "Neutral" if there were a clutch to disengage the motor in the Bolt, would disengage about 50% of the braking ability of the car, and would basically be a really foolish thing to do for that reason alone.

Rubbish. The car is able to lock all 4 wheels regardless what mode it's in. Braking ability on modern cars is almost entirely a function of tire selection.

 

[Anonymous]

How long before we read about someone in neutral coasting downhill* who inadvertently pushed the button and shoves his car into reverse?

You tell me, since you're the one proclaiming the extreme dangers of a neutral car, which is almost an oxymoron.

Good luck convincing a judge that the intention of the California legislature was to exclude a 1-gear electric car from the provisions of this statute!

Good luck ever finding a case in which someone had to explain the use of N to a judge. Now how about failure to signal? I suppose "I'm Californian" might pass as a condition with some sympathetic judges.

Here's how it will work:

You will be driving in neutral and get into a severe automobile accident.

The lawyer for the plaintiffs suing you, will present the evidence that your car was in "neutral" at the time of the accident AND will introduce your posts on this forum as evidence of your intent!

Now it is your turn to rebut their case; good luck! I need not "debate" this one any longer...

 

[oilerlord]

No mechanical changes by putting an EV in "neutral". Or even into reverse - it is all programming and electrical control.

There has to be. I get that it's a drive-by-wire system, and that software controls it. You mention that your car feels like it's accelerating on flat grades in N. I have the same experience with my car. I'm sure we can google the engineering behind the drive system, but the fact we have no regen in N means mechanicals are being disengaged - allowing our cars to do that effortless glide in N. The neutral "point" with the right pedal isn't anywhere close to coasting in N.

 

[oilerlord]

How long before we read about someone in neutral coasting downhill* who inadvertently pushed the button and shoves his car into reverse?

You tell me, since you're the one proclaiming the extreme dangers of a neutral car, which is almost an oxymoron.

As was pointed out earlier - nothing would happen. On the Bolt, accidentally "shoving" into reverse isn't possible.

It's funny how a guy that advocates driving 30 mph slower than everyone else is arguing that coasting in N is unsafe. :roll:

 

[NeilBlanchard]

No mechanical changes by putting an EV in "neutral". Or even into reverse - it is all programming and electrical control.

There has to be. I get that it's a drive-by-wire system, and that software controls it. You mention that your car feels like it's accelerating on flat grades in N. I have the same experience with my car. I'm sure we can google the engineering behind the drive system, but the fact we have no regen in N means mechanicals are being disengaged - allowing our cars to do that effortless glide in N. The neutral "point" with the right pedal isn't anywhere close to coasting in N.

There is no mechanical changes when "shifting" a typical EV. There are only about 12 or 15 moving parts in a typical EV.

Armature
2 bearings
step down gears
2 more bearings
differential
inside universal / CV joints
half shafts
outside universal / CV joints
wheel spindle axles
wheel bearings

Oh and brakes, spin, too.

There is no mechanical mechanism to have a neutral.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

No mechanical changes by putting an EV in "neutral". Or even into reverse - it is all programming and electrical control.

There has to be.

There doesn't have to be. With an EV in "neutral", the motor still spins with the wheels. There are simply no magnetic fields within the motor at the time (due to the aforementioned electrical controls) and therefore no force either way on the motor (acceleration nor resistance). There is no mechanical change.

BTW, when an EV is in "reverse", the motor actually spins the opposite direction. This is very unlike an ICE in which the engine spins in the same direction, but the mechanical gearing is switched so that the wheels spin in reverse.

 

[oilerlord]

There is no mechanical changes when "shifting" a typical EV. There are only about 12 or 15 moving parts in a typical EV.

Armature
2 bearings
step down gears
2 more bearings
differential
inside universal / CV joints
half shafts
outside universal / CV joints
wheel spindle axles
wheel bearings

Oh and brakes, spin, too.

There is no mechanical mechanism to have a neutral.

If there is no mechanical mechanism that gets disengaged in N, how do you explain why the car coasts farther in N than coasting at the neutral point of the right pedal?

 

[devbolt]

There is no mechanical changes when "shifting" a typical EV. There are only about 12 or 15 moving parts in a typical EV.

Armature
2 bearings
step down gears
2 more bearings
differential
inside universal / CV joints
half shafts
outside universal / CV joints
wheel spindle axles
wheel bearings

Oh and brakes, spin, too.

There is no mechanical mechanism to have a neutral.

If there is no mechanical mechanism that gets disengaged in N, how do you explain why the car coasts farther in N than coasting at the neutral point of the right pedal?

Because there is some electrical flow in/out of the motor/generator and battery that creates the effect. It's all in software.

Generally any modern EV with a single speed transmission doesn't have any clutches or dogs. There's no shifting of gears, no mechnacial disconnection of the drive wheels from the motor/generator. Just a reduction gear from the motor/generator linking to the drive wheels.

 

[Anonymous]

How long before we read about someone in neutral coasting downhill* who inadvertently pushed the button and shoves his car into reverse?

You tell me, since you're the one proclaiming the extreme dangers of a neutral car, which is almost an oxymoron.

It's funny how a guy that advocates driving 30 mph slower than everyone else is arguing that coasting in N is unsafe. :roll:

Put up, or shut up!

I never advocated that! Link me to where I said that or put a cork in your "Upper US!"

And of course, coasting in N is unsafe; just everyone who does it argues they can do it "safely," just like a driver who routinely ignores the speed limit argues they can drive safely that way, too!

 

[redpoint5]

And of course, coasting in N is unsafe; just everyone who does it argues they can do it "safely," just like a driver who routinely ignores the speed limit argues they can drive safely that way, too!

You're starting to get it! Coasting in N is unsafe like walking outside is unsafe.

Of course, safety (or inversely unsafety) is relative. I'm thousands of times more unsafe riding my motorcycle than coasting in N.

Perhaps coasting in N is as unsafe as failing to signal a lane change. Why then is it interesting to point out that coasting in N is unsafe? We might as well be talking about nearly the entire state of CA failing to signal. We're not talking about failure to signal a lane change because it's an uninteresting topic. Millions of times it can be done with no consequence, with a handful times resulting in accidents.

Are you prepared to drop the uninteresting topic of coastin in N, or do you have some startling statistics to make this an interesting discussion?

 

[LeftieBiker]

MichaelLAX wrote:
How long before we read about someone in neutral coasting downhill* who inadvertently pushed the button and shoves his car into reverse?

I'll bet that MichaelLAX wouldn't be happy to know just how we Leaf drivers "shift" to Neutral while driving... ;-)

There is a valid argument here, though: anyone whose car is in neutral when an accident occurs will be in legal jeopardy, regardless of whether or not there is any sound reason for it in the case of an EV.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

There is no mechanical changes when "shifting" a typical EV. There are only about 12 or 15 moving parts in a typical EV.

Armature
2 bearings
step down gears
2 more bearings
differential
inside universal / CV joints
half shafts
outside universal / CV joints
wheel spindle axles
wheel bearings

Oh and brakes, spin, too.

There is no mechanical mechanism to have a neutral.

If there is no mechanical mechanism that gets disengaged in N, how do you explain why the car coasts farther in N than coasting at the neutral point of the right pedal?

Because the motor is neither powering the car nor generating braking power. It is just spinning.

The ONLY "gear" that has anything mechanical is Park - which engages a pawl to hold the car in place.

 

[Anonymous]

And of course, coasting in N is unsafe; just everyone who does it argues they can do it "safely," just like a driver who routinely ignores the speed limit argues they can drive safely that way, too!

You're starting to get it! Coasting in N is unsafe like...

Of course, safety (or inversely unsafety) is relative. I'm thousands of times more unsafe...

Perhaps coasting in N is as unsafe as ...

Can't argue with an anarchist!

Good luck defending yourself when you are in an accident!

See how much a jury of your peers determines you owe in damages for those views! $$$$ :roll:

 

[oilerlord]

[

Because the motor is neither powering the car nor generating braking power. It is just spinning.

The ONLY "gear" that has anything mechanical is Park - which engages a pawl to hold the car in place.

Ok, fair enough. There is some resistance "coasting" with the right pedal at the "neutral" point and (in my experience) essentially none when coasting in N. Is the resistance being caused only from the motor itself?

 

[SeanNelson]

If there is no mechanical mechanism that gets disengaged in N, how do you explain why the car coasts farther in N than coasting at the neutral point of the right pedal?

Probably because in "D" (or "L") mode there's no way for you to reliably judge the pedal position where the car isn't applying at least a little bit of power or extracting at least a little bit of regen from the motor. In "N" you've explicitly instructed the car to lay off the motor, but in the other modes you're just doing your best to emulate it.

This is exactly why some people wish that there was a user-selectable setup option you could choose which would tell the car not to apply ANY regen when you've completely lifted your foot from the accelerator pedal in "D" mode. That would eliminate the guesswork without having to shift the car into neutral mode, removing some of your ability to control the vehicle.

 

[oilerlord]

There is a valid argument here, though: anyone whose car is in neutral when an accident occurs will be in legal jeopardy, regardless of whether or not there is any sound reason for it in the case of an EV.

Perhaps, but difficult to prove in court; and I really can't think of a scenario where coasting in neutral could be determined as being the cause of an accident. If you did forget you were in neutral at a stop light, couldn't accelerate, and someone hit you from behind - the accident is still their fault.

Technically the driving data could be extracted from the car's computer, but I see no reason why either side of the case would even consider going there.

 

[redpoint5]

Can't argue with an anarchist!

Not only is this sentence an ad hominem logical fallacy (I never said I was an anarchist), it isn't even factually true (you can argue with an anarchist).

Good luck defending yourself when you are in an accident!

A person involved in an accident isn't automatically the guilty party if they are found to have been in N at the time of the incident (what kind of attorney are you?). One example would be getting rear ended at a red light. Failure to stop in time is the cause of the accident, not being in neutral.

See how much a jury of your peers determines you owe in damages for those views! $$$$ :roll:

I carry liability insurance, unlike 1/6th of the CA motoring public.

Is this topic really that interesting to you, or do you just like hearing yourself type?

 

[Anonymous]

There is a valid argument here, though: anyone whose car is in neutral when an accident occurs will be in legal jeopardy, regardless of whether or not there is any sound reason for it in the case of an EV.

Technically the driving data could be extracted from the car's computer, but I see no reason why either side of the case would even consider going there.

Which is why you are a better hockey fan than you are a lawyer!